Conan O'Brien:

This is an absolute joy. It's so nice to see you. You make me happy every time I see you. I think you have that effect on people. We've had some dark times recently in the last couple of years, and you are doing your best, as you say, to get your light out there. And I think that's a noble thing, and thank you very much for doing that.

Michelle Obama:

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing this experience with me.

Conan O'Brien:

I told you, we were chatting a little before the show, and I revealed that this was a surprise to me, and it shouldn't have been, but I read the book, The Light We Carry, and there were so many things in the book that I could relate to. What resonated with me is that you talk a lot about growing up, feeling different, feeling other, and a lot of people would first maybe go to race, but what you're talking about is beyond that, includes that, but goes beyond it because height was an issue for you.

Michelle Obama:

That was one of the first... Most people would think I would talk about race in this chapter of feeling different or feeling invisible. But I wanted to make sure that the definition of differentness was broad because so many people feel it. And the first time I felt it was because I grew up in a black community, I wasn't other in my home. And that didn't happen until I went away to college. But I was the tall girl. I don't know how many people are the tall girls in the world.

So that whole thing, you grow up, nothing fits you. Clothes weren't made for you, everything. I spent my life tugging on my pants sleeve. I tried to make sure because my parents never let me slouch because they were like, "Uh-huh, sit up." And I took dance to make sure that I had decent posture. My mom made all my clothes. And it was just like, "Oh Lord, please, let's not go to the Butterick section." She's like, "I can make that." And I was like, "Ma, no, no. I just want to go to a department store and get the jeans with the tag with the Gloria Vanderbilt label." I just desperately wanted to be like the girls I saw, the peppy cheerleaders. And I use that. And you shared that you were also-

Conan O'Brien:

Yeah, I did too. I never had pants that fit me.

Michelle Obama:

...The tallest.

Conan O'Brien:

And I can prove it because I had a friend who was an artist and he did a sketch of me when I was in high school that I think they have. And it depicted me... This is long before I'm a famous person or anything. And he includes-- my pants don't fit, my feet are way too big.

Michelle Obama:

And your feet.

Conan O'Brien:

It was a mess.

Michelle Obama:

Look at those feet.

Conan O'Brien:

And also when I was a kid growing up, I had... Stop laughing. We're here to lift people up. And I really think this crowd, this crowd is bullying me right now, I think. But when I was a kid, I was the only one in my family that had bright orange hair, and my mother would cut it in a bowl, but it was just that business of going straight across the head. And so I hated having freckles. And I hated having orange hair. And I remembered seeing people on TV who had black hair piled up high, like the guy on Hawaii 5-0. I'd see people on TV and I'd go like, "That's how you're supposed to look, not like this."

Michelle Obama:

And that's one of the challenges in this world, particularly in this country, when there are so few definitions of what it can mean to be human. And particularly in this country, we fall for it. We fall for the okie doke. Because if somebody can look the part and it's usually they're white, they're male, they're in a business suit, they act like they have money and power, and that is the definition of who matters, who belongs, right?

Conan O'Brien:

Right.

Michelle Obama:

And I start with height because so many of us in this country feel othered. We feel different. We don't see ourselves reflected anywhere. And I hear from young people who talk about feeling invisible because they don't see any signs of themselves anywhere in the world. And that is an eerie feeling. I first felt it when I went away to Princeton, where at the time when I went, not only were there a handful of black people, but there weren't many women.

Conan O'Brien:

When you were there, it was only 12 years after-

Michelle Obama:

It had been coed.

Conan O'Brien:

Only 12 years after Princeton had gone coed.

Michelle Obama:

That's right.

Conan O'Brien:

Which is nothing.

Michelle Obama:

That's right. I had never been in an environment where there was no sign of me. There were no black people on the walls. There were no black people in the town. We walked around campus, I was an oddity. And that was the first time I realized there are whole parts of this country that don't even know I exist. They have never seen somebody like me. So no wonder they're crossing the street when a black coed comes down the street. They've never seen me before. And so many of us are living in a world where we feel othered. That's why it's so important for us to tell our stories, to put more stories of mattering out there.

I write about women now. We've got so many role models. We've got Serena now out there. I didn't have a Serena to look up to, somebody who was beautiful, strong, fast, outspoken. That wasn't a role model for me. I write about Mindy Kaling now rewriting the whole story of who belongs in television. Ali Wong, who's one of my favorite comedians. All of those women, their representation is so important because one of my tools for being visible is that I have to stop measuring myself in other people's mirrors. I have to get out of their mirrors and start... I had to start telling myself that I was enough. And I tried to tell young kids this, "You can't wait for somebody else to see you." Because just like at Princeton, they didn't even know I was there. They didn't even know to look for me.

So I don't want kids waiting to get their visibility from somebody else. That starts in here. That's the work of redefining what matters. And my role model for doing that was my father, a man who had every reason to feel invisible. He was a black working class man in segregated Chicago who had MS and walked with crutches. He had every reason to feel small in the world and feel unseen. But my father carried himself with a light, a sense of pride and dignity. Even I tell the story of how sometimes my father would trip and fall, and there's nothing more frightening than to see the person who is feeding you literally fall to the ground, a grown man, and the vulnerability that you feel in that time. But my father, he learned he would have to learn to laugh that off, get up and keep moving.

And so when I start feeling invisible, I think about the light that my father has demonstrated for me, the visibility that he's seen from within. And that has been a tool for me throughout my life. I have stopped waiting for people to see me. I've stopped waiting for there to be a role model in order for me to see and appreciate myself. I have to change the definition of who matters. And that's why representation and storytelling is important.

Why do I write these books? I have thoughts in my head, but I think the more stories that I can tell about a little black girl from the South Side of Chicago who is working class, there's going to be some kid out there that's going to see themselves in the way that I didn't have somebody to see. And it is important for us to put our stories out there. I want little girls like this little beautiful girl right there, yes you, yes you, to know that your story matters, that I see you with hair like mine and that beautiful smile, and you belong. And I want you to practice that message now every day so that you're not like me at 58 wondering, am I good enough, when I know I doggone am good enough.

Audience Member 1:

Fashion is at the center of my life. I have been interested in fashion since junior high. I had a teacher that used to call me Gloria Vanderbilt. I mean, I'm very committed. I would say that on a list of 10, it's nine. Okay. It's important to me. I have a hair care company encouraging women to accept their natural hair. My mother relaxed my hair when I was seven years old. And so for the longest time, I didn't even know what my natural hair pattern was. I didn't know that it was as curly as it is. Making that transition, transitioning from relaxing my hair, straightening my hair, holding to a European standard and embracing my natural curls, so in that process, there was a lot of learning. And so there was a time in the workplace where it wasn't acceptable or to wear your hair in an Afro or to wear braids. And I'm just happy that at this point in life that we're at a time where a lot of African American women are accepting their hair, and also too, that we have legislation that gives us safe spaces in order for us to be our natural selves.

Conan O'Brien:

You mentioned your mother. She's an incredible person. You and I did an event together. This was before COVID, and there was some situation where I found myself in a room with a bunch of people, and your mom's there. And she's the most serene person, completely, completely unaffected by your success.

Michelle Obama:

That's even an understatement.

Conan O'Brien:

Yeah. I mean, just this very zen, yeah. This is what's happening-

Michelle Obama:

Whatever.

Conan O'Brien:

That is a testament because I think it's very rare when you... In my career, I've seen many people who I've been close to go through the gauntlet of fame and the glare, and they change. A lot of people change, and some people don't. And some people are always themselves. And your mom's-

Michelle Obama:

She's one of them.

Conan O'Brien:

And she lived in the White House and just thought, well, I'd rather be at home, I guess.

Michelle Obama:

Oh my God. We'd have to beg her to partake in anything, to travel abroad. "Why would I want to go to China?" “Because it would be a cool trip.” The only thing that would finally... And we'd play this dance all the time, because I would always try to travel, do a big trip with the girls. I never pulled the girls out of school for anything. It was like, "You are normal kids. This isn't about you. Go to school. This security, they're only trying to protect you because you become a risk to the president. If you get kidnapped, nobody's thinking about you." So I have that in me too. It's like, "You're not special. This is not about you. This is about your father. Go to school."

But I would try to plan one trip in the summer right before camps and all that started. And we've been to Venice. We'd seen the Pope. We've visited the Queen who gave the kids a... This was off script too. I mean, we went to London after our first visit, and we just went for a regular trip. And the Queen, Her Majesty, heard that we were there and invited us over. Just like, "Just come over."

Conan O'Brien:

I've had that happen.

Michelle Obama:

Now, she didn't call, but the people called the people. And we thought, okay, we're going to Buckingham Palace. This was after this visit. This is how kind she was to our family. So they said, "Just come by. Her Majesty wants you to just see the palace."

And nobody was there. We walk in, it's me, the girls Mom and Mama Kay, who's the girl's godmother, who's also a traveling companion. And the Queen showed us the gold room. There is a gold room, a room full of gold, y'all. Everything in the palace was like, this is what we were trying to do in the White House, the rose garden. Our rose garden was like... Their rose garden, we were in a buggy riding through the roses forever. And I was like, "Now this is a rose garden." She let the kids sit in her car. I mean, we were there for an afternoon and then they set up tea for us. And here we are sitting just in some room in the palace, and who comes down to greet us but Her Majesty just with their purse in her house. I was like, "You do carry that purse everywhere." You wanted to be like, "Where you going? You're at home."

Conan O'Brien:

I've always wondered about that. Why?

Michelle Obama:

It's with her everywhere. She came down for a visit. She had her purse. And I was like, "I hear you." But anyway, I digress. Those were the kind of trips-

Conan O'Brien:

Those are funny digressions though. That was great.

Michelle Obama:

Those are the kind of trips that my mother would be like, "Nah..."

Conan O'Brien:

You've seen one gold room, you've seen them all.

Michelle Obama:

Yeah. So we went to Rome once, saw the Pope. I think she met two popes, right? So one of the last trips we took was going to Italy again, going to Venice. So the question was, "Mom, do you want to come, want to come to Italy?" "I've been to Italy, why would I want to go again?" "Because Venice is different than Rome." So usually she would only go because in the end I'd say, "The girls need you to go." "Okay, then. If the girls need me to go, then I'll go." I'm like, "Oh lady, get over yourself." But anyway, she is not impressed with me. She's still, I say this, my brother... She still loves him more. She's still that mother that loves her son. She's like, "I know you were First lady, but Craig is just... Did you taste his wine? His wine? He had the best wine." And I was like, "Mom, we live in the White House. His wine is not that good. I know it's not that good."

Conan O'Brien:

Well, now we're getting to some stuff here. This is good.

Michelle Obama:

Yeah. Mothers and their sons. I am a victim. So she kept us all grounded in the White House. And I have a chapter in there because I've always tried to get my mom to write a book. And what do you think she would say? "Nobody wants to hear what I have to say." I was like, "Yeah, Ma, they do. They really do. You have done a lot in this world." My mom is one of seven, and this is in the time where I don't think people realized that women probably had postpartum. And now looking back and knowing my grandmother, I was like, my grandmother was depressed. We always just thought she was snobby. She was tired. But especially as black people, you didn't recognize that.

Her mother was very particular about things in the house. And my mom told the story of how they had this one glass dining room table in the living room, seven kids. And they were never allowed to touch the glass table, but they were forced to get dressed up whenever there was company and sit dressed up. They couldn't say a word. Kids were to be seen and not heard. And my mother remembered just sitting for hours listening to adults talk and thinking, these people are so stupid. They're not even saying anything. She said she remembers in her head that they're not even making sense, but she couldn't say anything. And they couldn't touch the glass table. So they went years never touching that glass table, seven kids, never broke. Until one day one of her mother's friends came over, sat on the table and broke it. And my mother cracks up about that story. She's like, "We just laughed and laughed and laughed about it."

But my mother decided then and there that she wasn't going to raise her kids to be seen and not heard. My mother was able to parent in a way that was the opposite of what she saw. And I think a lot of people who don't have a certain thing, we question if we didn't have a dad or if we didn't have a mother that saw us, if we didn't live in a perfect household that how can we parent with what we don't have?

My mother and father, both who had interesting relationships with their parents, they did the opposite of what they wanted. And that's another tool. It's like you can learn from the brokenness. You can learn about what you don't want to do. My parents were brilliant parents. They didn't come from brilliant parents, but they worked hard to do the opposite of what was done to them. So I think we all have the ability with the right set of tools to grow beyond what we've ever seen. And I want people to embrace that. I want parents particularly to understand that you don't have to have stuff to be a good parent. Don't break your neck trying to... And I know kids are like, "Don't tell them that." Do not helicopter them and do not give them a lot of stuff. If you give them your love and gladness, that's all that they need. That's all that they need. Even if they say they want more.

Marian Robinson:

My name is Marian Robinson, and I am Michelle's mother. She was definitely the person that she is now from the day that I met her. She was very tenacious and hardworking, and she always wanted everything perfect. The story I tell about Michelle is one she hates. She had a coloring book like all little children have. And when my husband and I looked at her coloring book, we saw that each page that had a little mark outside the line was scribbled on, and she moved onto another picture to color. It had to be perfect. And that was when she was very little, maybe three years old. And my husband and I asked each other, "Did you tell her to do that?" And both of us said, "I didn't ask her to do that. That's crazy." She did homework over and over again. Sometimes I would even have to ask her to please put that pencil and paper down and relax. And she did the same thing when she took piano lessons. She just kept playing the song over and over again. So that was just her.

Conan O'Brien:

You talk about how you witnessed when you met the president, President Obama, when you met him for the first time and you met his family, that his family dynamic was different from yours.

Michelle Obama:

Yeah.

Conan O'Brien:

They were huggers. Is that right?

Michelle Obama:

It was hugs, and "I love you, and I miss you." We didn't do that in our house.

Conan O'Brien:

I relate to your story. Yeah.

Michelle Obama:

But I have a whole chapter on partnering well, because that's a big question that I get from young couples, especially young women. "How you find a man??" And they'd see us and they're like, hashtag couples goals. They see me and Barack, and it's like we all look all hugged up all the time. And we are. I love him. That's my boo. But I share that chapter because I see too... First of all, we don't talk enough about the real of marriage. So you got a lot of young people who don't know how to pick partners, don't know why they're getting married, don't know what marriage is and how hard it is because nobody ever shares the truth of it. But one of the things that makes marriage hard is that you're trying to pool two lives together, do two different temperaments, two different ways of being.

And like you said, Barack grew up in Hawaii. His mother lived abroad, worked abroad, so they would see each other once a year. And so I always said he learned to love at a distance. And when you're loving at a distance, the words matter. I mean, that's all you have are the words, letters and hugs. And you've got to get it all in right there, right here now. I grew up the exact opposite. I grew up on the South Side with everybody I've ever known within seven blocks of each other. Me and my family lived above my great-aunt. We lived around the corner from my mother's mother, the woman I told you about, who was kind of... She, of course, separated from my grandfather who was our favorite. He lived around the corner from her with another aunt. My father's parents lived maybe 10 blocks away. We saw each other all the time. And you celebrated everybody's birthday, seven kids, all these grandkids. There was a birthday every weekend. We were just like, "I don't need to hug you because I'll see you tomorrow."

So that's a different way of showing affection. And when you merge those two ways of being, there's a whole lot of compromise that has to happen around how you interact. And it takes work to figure out the balance of how do I get what I need, and how does he get what he needs? That's why there's no such thing as 50/50. I've never experienced 50/50 in my marriage. And this, "I don't want to have to compromise." And it's like, "Well, then you want to live by yourself." Which is fine. That is a worthwhile ambition.

I don't want my daughters to feel like marriage is the only option for them to be happy. If they choose to be married, then I want them to do the work to be whole individuals so that they know what they want, and they know how to look for another whole individual to come to the table with. But I think there are a lot of young girls in particular who just dream of the wedding. They spend more time on Pinterest with the wish books, and everybody knows the third dress. Now everybody wears three dresses. It's not just one. You got to have the wedding dress, the reception dress, and then the after party dress. And then you got the pre-engagement and the bachelorette thing. And before you know it, you've spent a hundred thousand dollars, and you don't even know that dude.

Because guess what young couples don't do? They don't talk because everybody's trying to not look thirsty. I've talked to too many young women who have been dating dudes that they don't even know. And they're not asking questions like, "What's your family like? How do they show love?" Little things. And I was like, "Why don't you know that? What's his mother's name? You don't know his mother's name? You guys have been talking. Does he have a mother? Why didn't you ask him if he has a mother? That's going to tell you something." "Well, I don't want to look thirsty."

And it's like the thing that I say is that real love is nothing but thirsty. I knew Barack was the right one because he wasn't playing any games. He wasn't trying to pretend like we were dating, but weren't. He wasn't trying to relabel something. I could count on him to call me back. I'm like, "If dude's not even calling you back, don't bother. Move on to the next one." The guy you should marry should call you back. He should do what he says. Same thing for women. If she's playing games, move on. You can't enter a relationship in game playing mode. You can't enter marriage playing a game. You have to know who you are dating. And too many young people are out here playing it casual until they get married and they've never practiced not casual. And then it gets hard and they want to quit. And it's like, but it's just been two years.

But if you can't get through those rough times... And that is all marriage guarantees you is uncertainty and difficulty. There is no happily all the time. It is impossible. So I don't want young people to... First of all, I want them to think harder before they do marry. And then once you're in there, if you're with somebody you like and respect, and it's just hard, you don't divorce that. You work on that. You work through that to get to the other side of that. Because let me tell you, if you think the grass is greener, as my mom would always say, every man you're going to leave him and he's going to have the same issues, you're just going to get readjusted to that.

I tell the story of my mom in Becoming of how she would go through... She told me this. She would go through a period every spring when we were little where she would think about leaving my dad. And it was like, it would be right around spring and she'd do her spring curling and open up the windows and let the fresh air in. And she's thinking, "This is the time I'm going to leave your father." She tells me this later, and I'm like, "What?" And she said, "And I would play that out in my mind and think, no, I love this man. I love this life." It was like she did an annual recommitment through herself, unbeknownst to my father, thank God.

Conan O'Brien:

He had no idea the whole time.

Michelle Obama:

He had no idea.

Conan O'Brien:

He's hanging by a thread.

Michelle Obama:

That's right. But I think we have to share more the real of marriage so that young people don't run away when it gets hard. And I think some women feel like they have to settle for casual because of the numbers game. I know for black women, you start doing the math. If you're looking for your black king and the numbers are low and our numbers are high, I see too many women who are settling for less and less and less. And I know all the men out here, I'm about to tell them, don't do it. Keep your bar high. I mean, be okay with being alone if that's what has to be. I mean, I wish people find love, but I have seen too many people in bad relationships. And that's some of the loneliest feeling you can be, is to be with somebody that doesn't love you the way you deserve to be loved.

Conan O'Brien:

I think I speak for everybody here. I've been... Talk about thirsty. I've been so thirsty for optimism. I've been really thirsty for optimism, and I'm very tired. We talked about this. We have a news cycle that's run by an algorithm that's constantly telling us it's all over. We're done.

Michelle Obama:

Every year is worse than the next one. This is the worst year ever. And then the next year is the worst year ever.

Conan O'Brien:

And I think it really gets to these young people.

Michelle Obama:

It does.

Conan O'Brien:

Because my perspective is different. My perspective is there's so much good, and there's so much positivity, and there's so many... I mean, I'm really impressed with the young people I meet, the people that work for me, and I think-

Michelle Obama:

I am too. I am too.

Conan O'Brien:

But I think what you're doing... You earned the right a long time ago to, if you wanted to, just say, "I'm going to sit at home and watch Netflix." I mean, you earned that right a long time ago. You did your part, but you're still out here, and you're exposing your frailty and your vulnerability. And that is a brave thing to do. And it's an amazing gift you're giving people. So on behalf of everybody here, thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, Michelle Obama. Thank you.

Michelle Obama:

Being in a relationship isn't easy. It takes work, real work to find any semblance of success or stability. And the truth is, being single isn't easy either. You are always wondering where or when you might meet that special someone. You're getting all those questions from parents and aunties about when you're going to couple up. And don't get me started on the apps and texting and sliding into people's DMs. So all I can say is that whether you're in a relationship right now or not, you deserve someone who treats you with a baseline of dignity and respect. That's the foundation that has to exist before you can start diving deeper into your own vulnerabilities and intertwining your lives, and ultimately, leaning on one another in a way that can be truly beautiful.

And really, that gets back to this idea of belonging that Conan and I also talked about. A lot of us are hoping to find not just a partner who makes us feel understood and accepted, but also others who welcome us with open arms: family, friends, colleagues, and yes, even a talk show host. I'm so grateful to explore all of that and more with Conan. Thanks again for listening. Talk to you again soon.

Speaker:

This has been a Higher Ground and Audible Original, produced by Higher Ground and Little Everywhere. Executive produced by Dan Fierman and Mukta Mohan for Higher Ground and Jane Marie for Little Everywhere. Audible executive producers, Zola Mashariki and Nick D'Angelo. Audible co-producers, Keith Wooten and Glynn Pogue. Produced by Mike Richter with additional production by Joy Sanford, Dann Gallucci, Nancy Golombisky, and Lisa Pollak with production support from Andrew Eapen, Jenna Levin and Julia Murray. Location recording by Jody Elff. Special thanks to Melissa Winter, Jill Van Lokeren, Crystal Carson, Alex May-Sealey, Halle Ewing, Merone Hailemeskel, Sierra Tyler, Carl Ray Njeri Radway, Meredith Koop, Sara Corbett, Tyler Lechtenberg, and Asra Najam. The theme song is Unstoppable by Sia. The closing song is Lovely Day by Bill Withers. Audible Head of US content, Rachel Ghiazza. Head of Audible Studios, Zola Mashariki. Copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC. Sound Recording copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC. Voiceover by Novena Carmel. This episode was recorded live at the Masonic Auditorium in San Francisco.