Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast
Oprah Winfrey, Los Angeles
Season One, Episode 8
Little Everywhere / Higher Ground Productions / Audible
Speaker:
Higher Ground and Audible Originals present, Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast.
Oprah Winfrey:
Wow. Oh, my goodness. So I know all of you have been, at some point, in your life, to an event where the host is standing there before you, and says, "We have our guest, this evening, who needs no introduction," and then, they spend the next 20 minutestelling you everything that person didsince they was born. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that because I know you already know who's here. I'm here for the same reason you are. To get some of that light, she's carrying. So the woman who needs no introduction, for real. Our forever, First Lady, Michelle Obama.
Michelle Obama:
Hi everyone, and welcome to The Light Podcast. I'm Michelle Obama. If we're trying to get through a tough stretch, whether that's a couple of days, or a couple of years, one of the most important tools we've got is other people. And it's easy to think that friendships, or relationships, follow a simple formula. The more you see someone, or talk with them, or text with them, the harder you can lean on them, but my experience with my father tells me otherwise. My father passed away 32 years ago, and sadly, I've lived most of my life without him. But the depth of that relationship, the wisdom he passed on to me, the confidence he instilled in me, the moral compass he steadied me with, those things are still embedded in me, and I draw on them every single day. He did it all, in less time, than either of uswish we had together.
I think we all wish we had more time, with those we love. Whether they're across the country, or sleeping in the same bed with us, at night. So, what I want to talk about, are the ingredients that make relationships endure. How can we foster connections that last, and who better to join me, for this episode, than the queen of fostering human connection, Oprah Winfrey. Oprah and I have known each other, since the day she showed up on my doorstep, when Barack was running for Senate. In the time since, she's become a friend, a mentor, a guide. She constantly encourages me to use my voice, my light, to help others find theirs. As you will hear in this episode, she always, always delivers. My goodness. Whoo, whoo.
Oprah Winfrey:
Wow. I have to say the people came to see you.
Michelle Obama:
My goodness. Well, I think it was a pretty big added bonus that we got Miss Oprah Winfrey here, too. I have to just say this, every other moderator was so glad that they weren't following you.
Oprah Winfrey:
Well, it's so interesting because I've been watching you on Instagram, and people have been sending me, "Oh, my gosh. You should see... You should see what Conan did? Did you see what Tracee Ellis Ross did? Did you see what Gayle did? Did you see Tyler? Did you see Ellen?" And so, I was feeling kind of like, "Oh, my gosh."
Michelle Obama:
Was your fearful mind kicking in?
Oprah Winfrey:
My fearful mind.
Michelle Obama:
See, even Oprah Winfrey has a fearful mind-
Oprah Winfrey:
A fearful mind, and I actually... You know what happened? I thought, "Okay, I'm going to go back to the toolbox."
Michelle Obama:
Exactly. You know how to do this.
Oprah Winfrey:
Yeah, I know-
Michelle Obama:
I know how to do an interview.
Oprah Winfrey:
I know how to do an interview. I'm not scured of the people.
Michelle Obama:
Right.
Oprah Winfrey:
So here we are.
Michelle Obama:
Yes. Thank you for being here, my dear, dear friend.
Oprah Winfrey:
Thank you. I love you so much.
Michelle Obama:
I love you, too.
Oprah Winfrey:
I appreciate you so much.
Michelle Obama:
Same back at you.
Oprah Winfrey:
What you stand for. I want to know where were you, and what was going on, when you first realized, "This here is serious, and we not going nowhere."
Michelle Obama:
Yeah, yeah. Interestingly enough, I was on the road, the tour had just finished. We took some time off, and I was on the road, doing a couple of speaking engagements, and I was in Las Vegas. Because I also coupled those engagements, with a celebration with my team, to thank themfor the hard work they had done on the tour.
Oprah Winfrey:
So this is March 2020?
Michelle Obama:
This is March, and there was still buzz about COVID, in the air, but it's sort of back and forth. What is this? So we are in Las Vegas, and that's when there was a slow wave of cancellations. You remember that ripple effect?
Oprah Winfrey:
Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Obama:
Because people didn't know what to do.
Oprah Winfrey:
Correct.
Michelle Obama:
Companies were making split decisions, and so we are stuck in Vegas, watching the world slowly turn off. That's what it felt like. Events started being canceled, and we were in Vegas. Slowly, the casinos started to empty out. The streets in Las Vegas started to empty. It felt like we were in a ghost town.
Oprah Winfrey:
Did you think you needed to get home, or did you think-
Michelle Obama:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. We were trying to be responsible, and wait until the last event canceled, and then, finally they canceled it. We got back on the plane, got home. So that felt eerie, being out there on the road, when slowly, the world was shutting off.
Oprah Winfrey:
But we really weren't sure.
Michelle Obama:
Yeah, we weren't sure about anything.
Oprah Winfrey:
Everybody was just using hand sanitizer.
Michelle Obama:
That's right. That's right. That's right. Washing off their groceries.
Oprah Winfrey:
Yeah, washing off the groceries, yes. Yeah.
Michelle Obama:
Yeah.
Oprah Winfrey:
There was that phase, yes.
Michelle Obama:
And then, I was worried about the girls, because they were in still at school, and I'm thinking my babies are out there with the COVID. And I was hoping that the universities were going to be responsible, and then, finally the decision was made, that they were coming home. But then, I was thinking, "Oh, my God. They're coming to my house?" I was thinking they're going through airports, and sitting on airplanes. So Barack and I cautioned them to wear masks, and when they got home, I made them stay in the garage, and open all their stuff up. I was going to make them stay out there. I told them to take off their travel clothes. I mean, we didn't know what was going on. My husband thought I was being a little irrational, but I was like-
Oprah Winfrey:
I don't think-
Michelle Obama:
But I was like we're trying to- we didn't know.
Oprah Winfrey:
That's not irrational, honey. Stedman was in the guest house for 14 days.
Michelle Obama:
I remember that.
Oprah Winfrey:
That was during the 14-day period.
Michelle Obama:
See now, Malia and Sasha, at least, I'll let you come in the house. But we were preparing to create a COVID safe community, and since they had traveled, we were kind of holding our breath, making sure they didn't bring any virus home.
Oprah Winfrey:
Of course.
Michelle Obama:
So we didn't know how long to wait, what was the incubation period, so-
Oprah Winfrey:
Correct.
Michelle Obama:
... we instituted a set of common sense protocolin our household. We had a COVID community. Everybody that was managing, in the same way, we were masked, we sanitized, we continued to have a small community of people, but we socialized outside, six feet apart, because Barack was like this, "It is a virus, and if we keep ourselves clean," he knew enough to know what this was. So it was scary, but we had information. What was scary-
Oprah Winfrey:
So you were comfortably afraid?
Michelle Obama:
Oh, we were comfortably afraid. What was scary-
Oprah Winfrey:
As you talk about in the book, being comfortably afraid.
Michelle Obama:
That's when-
Oprah Winfrey:
I was down right scared.
Michelle Obama:
Yeah, but what scared me, Oprah, was watching the confusion-
Oprah Winfrey:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
... in the world. The mixed messages, the inconsistency, the lack of leadership, the lack of a plan. Watching people not take this seriously. People treating the pandemic like it was an extended vacation. People arguing about wearing masks, watching kids partying on the beach, in Florida-
Oprah Winfrey:
That's right. That-
Michelle Obama:
Remember?
Oprah Winfrey:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
That was scary because I'm thinking all those kids are going to go home, to a grandparent, or somebody with an autoimmune disease, and it is going to be catastrophic. That was the thing that scared me, watching disinformation. That's scary because... Watching people attack scientists, and the experts, who were trying to steer us towards something, and just, that was the frightening part of it, for me. Watching the worldnot deal with this well.
Oprah Winfrey:
So before reading The Light We Carry, I was feeling- and I know so many of you were feeling this too- because we have all these conversations about how bad things are when we were with our friends. And I think a lot of uswere feeling like you felt, before you wrote it, that there are so many massive problems. There's so many things that need to be overcome, and it feels like that there's a conspiracy of craziness, going on out here. So how do we get back to trust?
Michelle Obama:
Yeah.
Oprah Winfrey:
Trusting our government, trusting each other-
Michelle Obama:
Yeah.
Oprah Winfrey:
... in a way that doesn't make us feel numbed, and tired, all the time.
Michelle Obama:
Yeah. I think we can't underestimate what quarantine did to exacerbate that, because we were isolated from each other, physically. And while, to some, that felt good, it's like, "Whoo, I'm so tired of people." I think we need to be with each other. We really do. I think when we gather, and we mix our togetherness, we feel better. We feel better-
Oprah Winfrey:
Don't you all feel better just being here tonight? Don't you feel better, Tuesday night?
Michelle Obama:
And we haven't been able to do that. I always say it's harder to hate up close, and we have been isolated from each other. We're just hearing about each other, from the news, and from our feeds. And my experience with this country, is that a distortion of the truth, of who we are. I have traveled all around this country, in communities, of all different races, and socioeconomic backgrounds, and political affiliations, and people have, across the board, been kind, and decent, to me, to my family. Once they get to know us, they may not agree, but we are not the people that we see on TV, and I just want us to remember that. That we do not… We should never fear each other. There are the outliers of people who are struggling, deeply, but the vast majority of peopleare Toot and Gramsand Mom and Dad, they are hardworking, honest, decent people, who are not entitled. Who are grateful, who are proud Americans, who are willing to work hard, who tell the truth. That's who our country is, but we have to have leadersthat reflect that back. It is dangerous when our leadership says something different.
Craig Robinson:
My parents were really good at unconditional love.
Michelle Obama:
This is my big brother, Craig.
Craig Robinson:
So they just made us feel like our house, and our home, was the best place to be, the safest place to be. You could talk about anything you want. They never said, "It's because I said so." They always explained their decisions, and my mom was really good for saying, "I don't know the answer to that, but I'm going to find out the answer, and then, I'm going to give it to you." If you ever asked her questionthat caught her off guard, right? I don't think many parents did that then, and I don't think many parents do that now. I get the feel of peoplewho sort of avoid those kinds of interactions with their kids, the hard interactions.
Oprah Winfrey:
Can you finish this sentence? I still hear my father's voice when...
Michelle Obama:
Whenever. It's as deep as… whenever. His voice is ringing through my head. His voice was with me, on my first day at Princeton, settling myself into this bastion of elitism. He was with me, on my first day at my law firm, and even, after he died, he still was there, walking me down the aisle-
Oprah Winfrey:
Aww, I love that.
Michelle Obama:
... because he was the model. He helped model for me, the man I should have. So I was able to see Barack. I was able to see him, see past all the external stuff, and the external stuff was really pretty good, ladies. But I could see what was important, to look for in a man. He's with me now. He is with me, on this stage. He is what I tap into, when I'm trying to speak some truth to people, and show my authenticity, and my vulnerability. He is there, whenever.
Oprah Winfrey:
I love that you said that he helped you, in many ways, to be able to see, what you needed to see, in Barack Obama. Can we talk about your husband for a minute?
Michelle Obama:
Oh yes, please. Yes, please.
Oprah Winfrey:
People have tried to capture your love story. They've tried to capture the love story. They've tried to... They've tried. They've made a movie, the drama movie. They did the series on the first lady. They did... Tried, but they can't get it.
Michelle Obama:
Nah.
Oprah Winfrey:
They cannot get it, but you summed it up, so completely, in just one sentence, that was so powerful, that when I read it, it actually stopped me, and made my eyes water. You remember what the sentence was, in the book?
Michelle Obama:
No. What was it? Well, I don't know what sentencemade you weep?
Oprah Winfrey:
Okay. The sentence you were talking about, "You've lived many places...
Michelle Obama:
Mm-hmm.
Oprah Winfrey:
And...
Michelle Obama:
Oh, and...
Oprah Winfrey:
And... Barack...
Michelle Obama:
Barack-
Oprah Winfrey:
“Barack is my home.”
Michelle Obama:
... is my home. Yes.
Oprah Winfrey:
Barack is my home.
Michelle Obama:
Barack is my home.
Oprah Winfrey:
Barack is my home.
Michelle Obama:
Yes. He is.
Oprah Winfrey:
Now go home, and see if you can ask yourself that question, about the person you with.
Michelle Obama:
[laughs] You so silly.
Oprah Winfrey:
Are they your home? And I appreciate, how you break it down to us, that first trip to Hawaii-
Michelle Obama:
Yeah.
Oprah Winfrey:
... because when you first arrived in Hawaii, you were looking for, and I understand why, you were a working woman, and had never been to Hawaii, so-
Michelle Obama:
Yeah.
Oprah Winfrey:
... you looking for the Hawaii in Hawaii Five-O.
Michelle Obama:
Yes.
Oprah Winfrey:
Those of you who remember that show.
Michelle Obama:
Mai Tais and-
Oprah Winfrey:
Mai Tais and honeymoons-
Michelle Obama:
... sunsets on the beach.
Oprah Winfrey:
And honeymoon suites. But instead-
Michelle Obama:
Yeah. Instead, it was a trip home to visit his family. That's where he was from. He wasn't going back to some island vacation. He was going back, to be with his people, but I was young, and it was cold in Chicago, and I thought, "I'm going to Hawaii with my man. It's going to be so romantic." And then, we landed, and we went straight to Toot and Gramp's apartment. No ocean. It was a high rise building. Go up to the 10th floor, walk in, looks like my grandparents' house. Might as well be on the south side of Chicago, which was a wonderful thing, right?
Oprah Winfrey:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
To know that I saw his... I was familiar with his family, right?
Oprah Winfrey:
Uh-huh.
Michelle Obama:
Then we cuddle up. What's on the TV? 60 minutes, and they pull out some TV trays, and I think we probably had tuna sandwiches, with sweet pickles. I was like, "Yes, I do like this."
Oprah Winfrey:
But then, some days, you would go to the beach, and then, I love the moment where he says, "Okay, got to go."
Michelle Obama:
We're going back to Toot and Gramp's, and it was like, "Aww."
Oprah Winfrey:
Going back to the house, yeah.
Michelle Obama:
Yeah. So I was young, and silly, and I started feeling like, "I don't know if I like this. It's not as romantic as I thought," although I didn't act like that. So my mother knows, I did not act like some little spoiled person. I was very-
Oprah Winfrey:
But you are thinking, "Where is the Hawaii-
Michelle Obama:
Yeah.
Oprah Winfrey:
... from Hawaii Five-O?”
Michelle Obama:
Yeah. Where is... Right, exactly. But I conclude the story, by saying that what Barack was showing me, was the real, of him. And sometimes, as people looking for partners, we're looking for what we think are Mai Tais, and sunsets, and what we need is somebody who respects, and loves their family, and is going to show up for them-
Oprah Winfrey:
And showing you that.
Michelle Obama:
... again and again.
Oprah Winfrey:
That's what they're showing you.
Michelle Obama:
And Barack valued the time that he had with his family. It was nice to go to the beach, but being there for his mother, and his grandmother, his little sister. Helping them, work through their stuff, he was the rock of their family, and let me just tell you, he always shows up for me, and the girls, in that same way. He is present, and there, when we need him, and that's what he was showing me in Hawaii, when I was trying to get to the beach.
Oprah Winfrey:
I think what we all so appreciate in both Becoming, and also in The Light We Carry, is how you are so candid, about your relationship, about your life, and how everything is not perfect.
Michelle Obama:
Yeah.
Oprah Winfrey:
You say it took some time, and a lot of practice, for you all to work through your disagreements. So what's your style? You talk about your style and his style.
Michelle Obama:
I've said this to him. I've said this before. One of the things that's different in how we show love is that because his family lived far away, and traveled a lot, he had to learn to love, at a distance. And that means, there's more words said, more love exchanged, more physical... You know-
Oprah Winfrey:
They do the, "I love you" and all that.
Michelle Obama:
Yeah. "I love you. I love you. Love you, too. Love you, too."
Oprah Winfrey:
Yeah.
Michelle Obama:
I grew up with everybodywithin eight blocks of each other. All my aunts, and uncles, and great uncles, and cousins, and everybody celebrated birthdays. So we were with each other, every weekend, twice a weekend. We were always together. So it was like, "Mmm, bye. I don't have to tell you I love you because I'm going to see you Saturday." So love, for me, was showing up. It was like, "Yeah, yeah. Stop kissing me. Just do the laundry." And we, also, are temperamentally different. Guess what, I am? Kind of hotheaded. Talking, easy to get mad, it's like, "What?" And Barack wants to talk rationally, and I'm like, "Rational? Rational? Don't come to me with sense. I'm angry. Don't come to me with your three bullet points. You better get out of here, and let me cool down. I don't want to hear none of that reason." I believe more of us have to be honest about the work that it takes to build a life with another person. To me, it doesn't seem like it's that controversial.
Oprah Winfrey:
What's controversial is somebody of your stature being this honest about it.
Michelle Obama:
That's exactly right.
Oprah Winfrey:
Yeah.
Michelle Obama:
It's like all hashtag relationship goals, and I'm like, "I was mad at him, in that picture."
Oprah Winfrey:
Not only that... So what for you, is romantic now? What do you consider romantic?
Michelle Obama:
Romantic is, I love when my husband plans something, right? Because it is hard to plan, when you are the president, or the former president. So if he can surprise me with... And he gets so pleased with himself when he pulls something off. And our 30th honeymoon was probably the latest romantic thing that he did, because he recreated our honeymoon, which was driving along the Pacific coast. When we were married, first married, we started in San Francisco, rented a car, drove all the way down, through Big Sur, stopped, and saw the redwoods, and went through Santa Barbara, and thenended in LA, and it was just the two of usand he created that. Now, it wasn't just the two of us, because we were in a motorcade, and we had our agents, and three cars behind. There are like 12 people in the back, trying to hide. It's changed, but everyone was excited. All of his agents were like, "We're going on a walk next." And they were trying to lay back, and all our aides... We travel with a crowd, but he planned it.
Oprah Winfrey:
It was romantic.
Michelle Obama:
It was very romantic. It was very, very sweet.
Oprah Winfrey:
So in Becoming, you told us so much about the years, when he was away, and those years, I think, when you were feeling badly, in the relationship, in the marriage. Has it changed now that he's home? Where all the wives are like, "Mmm." Has it changed?
Michelle Obama:
Yeah.
Oprah Winfrey:
Is he a different kind of husband now, than he was-
Michelle Obama:
Yeah.
Oprah Winfrey:
... for all those years, with all the pressure?
Michelle Obama:
Well, you know what, I think he's been pretty consistent.
Oprah Winfrey:
Okay.
Michelle Obama:
I've grown. I've changed. I've learned that, over these years, that I have to make me happy. It goes back to the lessons from my father. He is not responsible for my happiness. He loves me. He cares about me, but most of my unhappinesshad to do with choices I was making. I had to be the perfect mother. I had to do everything right. I had to hold down a joband make sure that the... I was holding myself to a standard that was stressful for me.
Oprah Winfrey:
And also, impossible.
Michelle Obama:
And absolutely impossible.
Oprah Winfrey:
Because you can have it all, perhaps, but you can't have it all, at the same time.
Michelle Obama:
At the same time.
Oprah Winfrey:
You cannot.
Michelle Obama:
Let us say that again.
Oprah Winfrey:
You can... You say it.
Michelle Obama:
You can have it all, but not at the same time. You really can. That whole, "No, it is impossible. Especially if you want to be a good parent, and spend any time with your kids." It's a tough balancing act.
Oprah Winfrey:
I really appreciate it, in The Light We Carry, when you talked about how you recognized, and Barack recognized, that you couldn't be everything, for each other, and that's why your kitchen table of friends, is so important, and as you say, has helped to take the pressure off of your marriage.
Michelle Obama:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Oprah Winfrey:
Tell us about that kitchen table.
Michelle Obama:
You know... All right, I'm going to tell the story of when you met my kitchen table.
Oprah Winfrey:
Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Obama:
Can I tell that story?
Oprah Winfrey:
Yeah, tell that story.
Michelle Obama:
It's not in the book, but Oprah kindly hosted my 50th birthday party. Wasn't just my 50th-
Oprah Winfrey:
It was your 50th, not just your 50th. See, I wasn't going to tell that story. I didn't know if I could tell that story.
Michelle Obama:
Oh, okay. So you said yes before you knew what I was talking about?
Oprah Winfrey:
No, I know you... I want you to talk about it, but what I was going to, was a moment ago, say, Barack Obama, President of the United States, called me-
Michelle Obama:
Yeah, right.
Oprah Winfrey:
... to ask me, would I host, and at the end of the conversation, he says, "Make sure you note that I'm the one making this call. I'm the one that told you to arrange all this. So I'm the one that made the call. I didn't have an assistant call you." So when you were telling that story, I thought, "Oh, that's why he said that."
Michelle Obama:
That's why he said that.
Oprah Winfrey:
I'm the one that's making this call.
Michelle Obama:
That's right. So we're coming to stay with you, graciously, hosting us, and you said, "Bring your friends." And I was like, "Okay." And she's like, "How many people?" And I said, "Well, it's like 12."
Oprah Winfrey:
12.
Michelle Obama:
And you are like, what'd you say? You were like, "You don't have 12 good friends?"
Oprah Winfrey:
I did.
Michelle Obama:
I was like, "I do. I do." I'm not trying to stack the day-
Oprah Winfrey:
Who has 12 good friends?
Michelle Obama:
I do. And Oprah was like, "I got Gayle." And what I said was-
Oprah Winfrey:
The only person I know, with 12 good friends, was Jesus and the Disciples. That's the only person I know.
Michelle Obama:
But then you met-
Oprah Winfrey:
And then, one of them betrayed him.
Michelle Obama:
Okay, but then you met my kitchen table.
Oprah Winfrey:
Yes, yes.
Michelle Obama:
And you saw that I collect, and keep my friends, throughout life. So I got my roommate from college. I've got my best friend from law school. I've got the momswho helped me in Chicago. We were like a unit. We raised our kids together. Some of those kids are here tonight. They are like my children.
Oprah Winfrey:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
I have a whole new set of mom friends, and women, in Washington DC, who could understand that life. A couple who were married to people in Barack's administration, and when you're in that world, you need someone who understands that plight. They were my ride or dies. So I tend to collect people, throughout life, and keep them, because it's like different peoplebring different things to my life.
But the bottom line is that I call it my kitchen table, because the kitchen table in our home, was always the place where we felt safe. We'd come in as little kids, from the woes of the playground, and the give and takeof the neighborhood, and complaining about a teacher, or some unfairness. And you could always let it out at the kitchen table. You felt safe and seen. It was probably the first table where I felt seenby my mother and fatherwho loved to hear our storiesand our voices. But you always got rejuvenated at that table. You know, could let out the insults and the slightsand yell and screamand get that out your system, so that you could get yourself together, and go back out there, like you had some sense. So my kitchen table is that for me, and there are so many different aspects to my life. I've had so many different facets from motherhood, to professionalism, and on, and on, and on, that that table has just gotten bigger and bigger.
Oprah Winfrey:
I love the beginning of the book. You have this poem by Alberto Rios, that says, "If someone in your family tree was trouble, a hundred were not: The bad do not win - not finally, No matter how loud they are. We simply would not be here If that were so."
Michelle Obama:
A simple truth.
Oprah Winfrey:
So that brings us to the phrasethat has become synonymous with your name, "When they go low, we go high. We go high." And you say that going high, usually involves taking a pause, before you react to anything, correct?
Michelle Obama:
Absolutely.
Oprah Winfrey:
Okay. So what has happened, recently in your life, or in the country, that you had to step back, and say, "Let me pause, and try to get to high."
Michelle Obama:
Watching the Georgia Senate. Just watching that, before it was decided. Watching that turn into a runoff.
Oprah Winfrey:
Ooh, ooh. Where are we in the worldthat that even had to happen. That Barack had to go down there, and literally, preach to the people.
Michelle Obama:
You know-
Oprah Winfrey:
Yes?
Michelle Obama:
They were like, "Don't do this."
Oprah Winfrey:
"Don't... What are y'all doing?" Yeah.
Michelle Obama:
Whoo. So yeah, look, there's plenty in the world, that makes me mad, you know.
Oprah Winfrey:
And wait a minute, look, can I just ask you this?
Michelle Obama:
Yes, yes.
Oprah Winfrey:
Do you go high, immediately?
Michelle Obama:
Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Oprah Winfrey:
Okay.
Michelle Obama:
Now that's what the kitchen table is for, remember? I go sit at my kitchen table, and we have a go low session. We just go low. We're all picking ourselvesoff the floor.
Oprah Winfrey:
Okay.
Michelle Obama:
I used to do this thing with my staff, even in the White House, where - before I would give a speech or do an interview- we'd mock answer the questions, because they knew I needed to get the low out. So I would have-
Oprah Winfrey:
So we feel better knowing that.
Michelle Obama:
Oh, yeah. I would just play out what I would call presidential ending statements, that I could make. I'd be like, "You know what? We could just go home, if I said ___?" Right? And my team would look and go, "Yeah, don't do that." But sometimes - so going high, doesn't mean you don't feel the rage, right? It doesn't mean that you're not supposed to feel. It doesn't mean that you are complacent, in unfairness, and inequality. It doesn't mean you don't do the work. It's just the choice of your approach, and going high is a choice. It's a choice that I think is most mature. It's a long-term choice, and it's not you just wallowing in the gut feeling of what you feel at that moment. That's self-indulgent. And when you are a leader, with a platform, we can't afford to indulge, our innermost ugly. We have a responsibility to go high, because we've lived through leadership that goes low and no one feels good in that. It doesn't lead to solutions. It just doesn't work.
So I end the book by answering the question that everybody has been asking me, "Still go high, Michelle? Now? Really? Really?" And my answer is, "Yes, absolutely. We always go high. We go high, but we do the work." And that's what I want young people to know, that the light we carry, is in all of us. We have to learn how to build it up in ourselves, first. We can't look to other people to build it up in us, because sometimes they don't have it in them, and once we build it up, we have to protect it. Protect it with a good kitchen table, keeping people in, but also letting people go, when they're not serving you, for the best.
Oprah Winfrey:
When they're losing oxygen.
Michelle Obama:
When they're losing oxygen. You have to protect yourself from the poison that's out there. You've got to get out of other people's mirrors. And then, once you've buttressed yourself, and you've got it together, then it's our responsibility to share that light. That's the going high part. So as you think about interacting, speaking out, texting, using social media, think about the light you carry. Lead with that light, because light begets light. Hope begets hope. Going high begets more of it. That's why we do it.
Oprah Winfrey:
Thank you for reminding us of the light we carry, Michelle Obama.
Michelle Obama:
Thank you, Oprah Winfrey.
Michelle Obama:
Look, there will be days where you'll want to go low, and just sit in it. Just stew for a while, and believe me, I have been there, but I've learned that if you spend too much time down there, you'll end up asking yourself, "What am I doing to myself? What am I doing to my light?" That's why we're talking about going high, and building lasting relationships. It's why, in other episodes, we've talked about the power of small, the importance of building your kitchen table of friends, of navigating relationships, and building meaningful partnerships. Of the joyful, maddening journey of raising children, and so much more. There's no right, or wrong way, to do any of this. We are all just trying to find our way.
Hopefully the conversations, in this podcast, have given you some tools, and practices, and attitudes, that will help clear a path through the darkness, and into the light. It is wonderful to have a friend like Oprah, to explore all of this with, as well as Ellen DeGeneres, Conan O'Brien, Gayle King, Hoda Kotb, David Letterman, Elizabeth Alexander, and Tyler Perry, throughout this season. Because believe it or not, this is actually our final episode. So I just want to say thank you. It has meant so much to have you with me on this journey, and I hope you can find something useful from it, in your journey. I hope there's something in here that gives you comfort or a new perspective. And more than anything, I hope this helps you recognize your own light, so that you can share it with others. Thank you so much, everybody. I'll catch up with you again soon, sometime. Until then, take care.
Speaker:
This has been a Higher Ground and Audible Original, produced by Higher Ground and Little Everywhere. Executive produced by Dan Fierman and Mukta Mohan for Higher Ground and Jane Marie for Little Everywhere. Audible executive producers, Zola Mashariki and Nick D'Angelo. Audible co-producers, Keith Wooten and Glynn Pogue. Produced by Mike Richter with additional production by Joy Sanford, Dann Gallucci, Nancy Golombisky, and Lisa Pollak with production support from Andrew Eapen, Jenna Levin and Julia Murray. Location recording by Jody Elff. Special thanks to Melissa Winter, Jill Van Lokeren, Crystal Carson, Alex May-Sealey, Halle Ewing, Merone Hailemeskel, Sierra Tyler, Carl Ray Njeri Radway, Meredith Koop, Sara Corbett, Tyler Lechtenberg, and Asra Najam. The theme song is Unstoppable by Sia. The closing song is Lovely Day by Bill Withers. Audible Head of US content, Rachel Ghiazza. Head of Audible Studios, Zola Mashariki. Copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC. Sound Recording copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC. Voiceover by Novena Carmel. This episode was recorded live at the YouTube Theater in Los Angeles.
