Huma Abedin thinks we should be defiantly optimistic

Note: Text has been edited and does not match audio exactly.

Katie O'Connor: Hi listeners, it's Audible Editor Katie O'Connor and today I'm privileged to be speaking with Huma Abedin, aide to Secretary Hillary Clinton and author of the memoir, Both/And, A Life in Many Worlds. Welcome, Huma.

Huma Abedin: Thank you for having me, Katie.

KO: Your memoir is divided into four very different but equally compelling parts. Your early life as the daughter of Pakistani and Indian immigrants, first living in Michigan and ultimately in Saudi Arabia, your early years working for Secretary Clinton, your relationship with your ex-husband, Anthony Wiener, and finally from the 2016 presidential election to the present. I'm curious, when you were writing, where did you start? Did you start at the beginning or was there a specific moment that poured out that really propelled the rest of the memoir? 

HA: When I first started writing, I just started vomiting on the page. I had written scenes from these significant moments in my life in different places. But when I actually sat to write it, I went to the beginning and was learning about all of my family history, calling my aunts and my mom and trying to understand the story of my grandmother and my father's story. I called my cousin in New Delhi. It was a both/and process. I was writing as I was researching this, and I kind of did it simultaneously. It really was not in the shape or form of a memoir. It was longer originally.

KO: You have said that writing this book was like therapy. Did that make certain sections easier to write? And conversely, what were the hardest sections to write? 

HA: Well, I have to say, the professional element was hard because when I sat down with my editor, she says, "You know, people don't really know what you do. People can't really understand the job."

And so I think the hardest in terms of capturing the material was explaining what we did at the State Department. Explaining the work in the Senate, explaining what it means to be a United States Senator and the work that we did and how those of us who worked for Hillary Clinton served her constituents. What we did in the White House. 

"What I was trying to share is that simultaneous to the whole world exploding, this really important work was happening on behalf of our country."

So I found that I had to go back and cut some of that stuff out. It's so dense. It was so meaty. The diplomacy was so hard sometimes. But I did feel it was important to include to remind people, most of the world knows about all the tabloid news about my life. What I was trying to share is that simultaneous to the whole world exploding, this really important work was happening on behalf of our country. 

KO: There's a great moment of humor too. When Secretary Clinton was first a senator, she couldn't get over the way that voting happened. "Just thinking this process is ridiculous. Isn't there a better a way to do this?"

HA: Yeah. She said, "There must be a more efficient way." One of the things I try to do throughout the book is just take the reader along the ride with me.

So instead of telling people, this is what you do here and this is what you do there. I just try to show people what it was like walking into the White House the first time, show them what it was like being in the Senate. It was fun to kind of take the reader on along that journey.

KO: In a recent interview, you said that as someone who's been in the public eye on and off for the last 20, 25 years, you feel like someone else has been writing your story and it felt like the right time for you to write it. Once you finished it, you didn't just put it aside. You picked it back up to narrate it yourself. Can you talk to me about the experience of reading your memoir?

HA: I didn't think I would read it. My editor actually convinced me. She said, "First of all, you have to do the other languages. The pronunciations. It is your life. It's your words." It was a joy to do the audio. I really, really enjoyed it.

KO: I want to talk to you for a second about your relationship with Secretary Clinton. There's a moment in the memoir where you express concerns to her about marrying a public person. And she shared that it helps to have someone to turn to for advice, insights, and discretion. And you say that in your case ultimately, that person turned out to be Hillary Clinton. In your decades with her, is there a specific moment that stands out that represents that shift from boss and mentor to friend and confidant?

HA: She's done it for me so many times. I share throughout the book that one of the many reasons I was ambivalent about writing my story was because I knew I would have to go on a book tour. And that meant being out in the world, doing interviews, and speaking in public. I was terrified. I really did have what maybe many women suffer from, which is impostor syndrome. I didn't think I was good enough. I didn't think I was smart enough, but she believed in me. I write a lot about how I always chose work over family, work always came first. And I have this moment with my son, who's about to lose his father for two years. And she's the one who tells me, "Don't work. You don't need to come and staff this interview. Go talk to your child."

When the scandal first broke, she had my mother and my brother fly to the Emirates to meet me. These were not things that she did as my boss. Even the advice she gave my mother when my mother asked her about me marrying Anthony. "What did she think?" She gave a very Hillary Clinton answer, which in the end was, “We have to trust that she knows what she's doing.” 

So for me, I can't even account how many times she has done this for me. The constant pushing, the nudging, “You should try this, you should go there.” “We should do this.” “Take the time you need to fix yourself and your family." The first words she said when I was trying to figure out what I need to do weren’t, “Let's go on this plane to Germany and talk about work.” She's always approached every personal problem in my life as a friend first and a boss second, and I've appreciated that. And I think it's one of the reasons I worked for her for 25 years.

KO: Undoubtedly, a key to your longevity with each other. As a listener, the moment with the most levity attached to it was her asking to be invited to your sister's wedding.

HA: It was perfect. Of course we would've loved for her to come. It was very Middle Eastern in that way. It's like you're together in joy and heartache. And she wanted to celebrate and it was amazing that they came, it was the highlight of the wedding. No question.

KO: That's amazing. You have been a witness to so much history through your work. Is there a trip or an encounter that stands out that makes you think, "That, I will never forget"?

HA: It's hard to compete with Nelson Mandela. I was privileged to take many trips to South Africa, but whenever you were in his aura, in his space, this idea of how you look at this human being who has such incredible strength of character and principles. I just felt blessed every time. The first time I saw Princess Diana was certainly a pinch-me moment. One of the things that you learn is that even these icons are human.

I tell a story in the book, walking into a room one day before a concert at the White House and 'N Sync was performing and Lenny Kravitz was performing. I walked into the room and Lenny Kravitz was sitting in a single chair, maybe reflecting on what he was about to do. And that was pretty special. I guess the first time you do anything, it's kind of wow.

KO: This next question has two parts. You seem like so many working mothers to shoulder so much. There is this sense that we should be able to do it all. And at a time when American women, particularly minority women, are leaving the workforce in record numbers, what do you think is the most important first step to have them feel that sense of community support so they can take on multiple roles at once?

HA: I think as working mothers, you feel like you carry the burden. You have to do everything, you have to be okay, so everyone else can be whatever they want. And you fill in. And even now, like I'm on this incredible high, and then there are days where I'm just feeling really sad and lonely. From the outside, you look at me and everyone's like, "My God, you live this perfect life." 

So much of it is that we have to all accept our own demons if you will. On days where I think I'm having a hard time, there's always somebody who has it harder than me. And I think having that sense of empathy, that sense of gratitude for what I do have, that's what gets me through. Every time I get up and I'm healthy, that to me is the gift.

KO: The second part of this question is about balance. In your memoir, you share some really lovely memories of the late Senator McCain. At one point he said to you essentially that a good life is a balanced life, and you said that it reminded you of something that your father would say. And that after the 2016 election, it became clear that you didn't have balance. What does that balance look like for you today?

HA: I'm on the road a lot, but it's not in the same way when I was on campaigns. I was gone entirely. I missed my son's first step. I missed his first word. I was not present when both of those things happened and sure enough, when I came back, his father did the best he could to fake shock and surprise when he said his first word again.

I was constantly torn, but now I have the ability to self-schedule in many ways. I used to do conference calls all through the weekend and now I realize weekends are for people, so I should take a couple of days off. But I've had to learn it. It's been a very slow process. And I think I'm finally there. COVID obviously helped. I think it forced us all to stop.

KO: Because of your public position, people felt entitled to your personal decision making. And part of this memoir is explaining some of those very personal decisions. In the wake of the 2016 election, there have been a slew of political memoirs, one of them being by former FBI Director James Comey. At the end of Both/And, you really don't mince words when it comes to Comey. You state that he played God, and you admit that sometimes his actions do still creep into your nightmares.

One of the things A Higher Loyalty does is attempt to provide justification for his very public professional decision that resulted from the discovery of emails between you and Secretary Clinton on your ex-husband's personal laptop. Whether or not I agree with where he landed, it was compelling and provided insight into this topic. I'm curious if you have read or listened to A Higher Loyalty, and if you understand his decision making any more now.

HA: I didn't have a choice, and that's why I write it very clearly. In April 2015, when Hillary was announcing for president, they announced the email investigation and it listed my name. Nobody had contacted me. So what do I do? I go and hire a lawyer and volunteer to cooperate. 

KO: You would've done anything.

HA: I would've said, “Go through whatever you need to look through.” And then for them to have made a public announcement, which 11 days before the election caused an earthquake. And then two days before the election to say, "Oh, you know what? These are all copies of things that we've run."

Obviously they had me come in again to answer those questions. All I'm positing is that I wasn't trying to run away from something. All these things were done to me. That is why I had so much anger, like, why didn't anybody call me? Why didn't anybody ask me? Why didn't anyone call my lawyer? And as is now documented fact, it altered the course of the election.

So, yeah, I do have to get up and live with that every single day. I mean, there are moments when you think about the pandemic, when you think about Afghanistan and the deal that was cut in the previous administration for that withdrawal. This administration did not inherit a plan; they inherited a deadline and they had to get out. And what has happened to the Afghan people since then, yeah, I have to live with that every single day. If she had been president, those things wouldn't have happened in 2016.

All of that bitterness and anger and confusion and guilt was taking me to a very low place. I was suicidal for a period, and I had to come out of that.

KO: Yeah. And you share a very vulnerable moment, talking about when you were standing on a subway platform, contemplating those exact suicidal thoughts. And I commend you for your vulnerability and your bravery and sharing that with people because mental health continues to be such a taboo topic in this country. 

HA: Absolutely. I think it's the best thing and in the end I needed professional help to get there. And look, we're never gonna be perfect. Even for me, this is gonna be a struggle for a while, you know?

KO: Yeah. I very much loved getting to meet your father through this memoir. I also lost my father at a formative age, and I very much related to the ways that your father stayed so present in your life but also in those ways that you deeply felt his absence. When he passed, you were 17 and contemplated deferring university yet another year and staying to help run the Institute of Muslim Minority Affairs, which he founded. As you said, it was his legacy. And your mother reminded you that while that was true, his children were also his legacy.

Aside from your own son, what ultimately do you want your legacy to be? 

HA: That a life in public service is a really tremendous path to follow. That letter that I found of my father's after he had died says, “Let others do what they will, you are responsible in the first instance to yourself, your principles and values, and ultimately to God.” And that's how I've tried to live my life, just following what he and my mom taught me and staying true to myself. But for me, I have found that public service has been where I have found my passion, my love, and really it's been an honor to serve.

There's nothing like traveling the country and talking to people. Somebody said the other day, “What do you like the most about the book tour?” I said, "It's actually the closest thing to what it used to be on a campaign going around and meeting people and talking to them about their problems, hopes, and dreams."

KO: I was curious what you hope listeners take away from your memoir.

HA: The lesson from this book is you should do the thing that scares you the most, because it might actually be worth it. I chose in the end to do that. And it turned out pretty well for me. When I go speak at these college campuses, people come up to me and say, "I'm taking engineering, but I really like sociology." And it's okay, try different things. 

"I don't think there's a path forward without us being willing to be civil to each other, sitting at the table together, trying to solve problems for the betterment of our society."

All I knew is that I was prepared to outwork everybody else. So maybe that's the lesson, is that it's possible to try everything, do everything, be curious about the world. One of the main lessons I hope people take away from the book is that I grew up—it's why the title of the book is Both/And—grew up in so many different worlds. And we are increasingly, in my opinion, living in a divided world, especially in this country. I don't think there's a path forward without us being willing to be civil to each other, sitting at the table together, trying to solve problems for the betterment of our society. And I think we have to be defiantly optimistic, because otherwise it's the end of our democracy.

KO: What's next for you?

HA: I am just beginning to wrap my head around that. So much of my life over the last two years was just getting the book done. And now the book is here and maybe I'll go back into journalism. 

I think from now I'll be on the political sidelines. I think I'd like to do something where I'm communicating with people. So I gotta figure that out. I'm not there yet.

KO: Well, I'll be excited to see what it is when it comes. Thank you for your time today. It was an honor speaking with you. And thank you, listeners. You can listen to Both/And by Huma Abedin on Audible.