"In the Room with Peter Bergen" transcript: Episode 35

In this episode: The Americans Who Would Be on the Frontline of a War in the Pacific

December 18, 2023

"In the Room with Peter Bergen" transcript: Episode 35

Episode 35: The Americans Who Would Be on the Frontline of a War in the Pacific

In the summer of 2022, the United States military ran a major training exercise to prepare to respond if its ally Taiwan gets invaded by China. Central to the strategy: the tiny American island of Guam, the westernmost part of the United States, where the U.S. has more than doubled defense spending in recent years. But not everyone on Guam is convinced that all this additional military buildup, meant to deter China, will ultimately make them safer. As one legislator put it, it’s like the island “a bullseye” on it. So how did his tropical island become central to U.S. strategy in the Pacific?

Please note: Our show is produced for the ear and made to be heard. Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors. Please check the audio before quoting in print.

###

Four thousand miles west of Hawaii, across the vast stretches of the blue waters of the Western Pacific lies the lush tropical island of Guam. And every year, on July 21st, families on Guam get together to celebrate one of its biggest holidays: Liberation Day.

[ARCHIVAL SOUNDS OF LIBERATION DAY CELEBRATIONS]

Christine DeLisle: It's probably the most important holiday, [DELISLE LAUGHS] maybe next to Christmas, but perhaps even more so than Christmas.

On Liberation Day, the indigenous people of Guam — the CHamorus — have parties and barbecues.

[ARCHIVAL SOUNDS OF LIBERATION DAY MUSIC]

There’s a big parade with marching bands.

[ARCHIVAL SOUNDS OF A LIBERATION DAY MILITARY BAND]

Tina Delisle remembers one particular Liberation Day celebration when she was a teenager.

Christine DeLisle: Every village had a liberation day princess, and then there was a queen. Uh, in high school, I was actually the Liberation Princess for my village. I was preparing for the parade. And I remember distinctly, when the planning committee was telling us what we needed to wear, how we needed to behave, when our floats drove past we were told, you got to put on a real big smile and you got to really show your patriotism and loyalty to the United States military.

The holiday celebrates the day that the U.S. took control of Guam from Japan back in World War II. Guam is a U.S. territory and still part of the United States today.

Christine DeLisle: I knew that my grandparents had survived the war. They had their wartime experiences that they shared. But for me, for someone to really tell me that, you know, I mean, that was, that was really jarring for me.

And that war experience on the island is something that CHamorus still think about a lot, especially these days, because Guam could end up on the front lines of what has the potential to be a devastating new war.

ARCHIVAL Newscaster 1: Tensions between the world's two most powerful countries, the United States and China after several military close calls

ARCHIVAL Newscaster 2: An overseas trip by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is causing big friction with China this morning. She has just left Taiwan's capital…

ARCHIVAL Newscaster 3: Tensions flaring after that Chinese warship nearly collided with the U.S. Military destroyer in the Taiwan Strait.

[MUSIC SHIFTS]

Here’s what's behind that tension.

China has repeatedly threatened to invade Taiwan, the democratic island nation off its coast that has a close political, diplomatic, and economic relationship with the U.S.In fact, Taiwan is one of America’s most important allies in Asia.

If the U.S. were to respond to a Chinese attack on Taiwan, Guam would be — as its nickname has it — the “tip of the spear.” This tiny island territory, which is about the size of Chicago, is the westernmost part of the United States.But it’s actually much closer to Beijing, China, than it is to Washington, D.C.

Mike Minihan: When you look at Guam, you just have to look at its position. It's incredibly important. Provides the United States of America with an airbase and a naval base that are extremely critical.

U.S. military planners would rely on those bases to quickly move troops and weapons all throughout the Pacific, something they can’t do so easily from bases in other countries like Korea and Japan. That makes Guam a potential target.

ARCHIVAL Newscaster: China's massive military parade delivered a very clear message far away to America.

A target China has made no secret it can hit

ARCHIVAL Newscaster: A new ballistic missile with the nickname the Guam Killer.

As one legislator put it, it’s like Guam has a bullseye on it. So there's a growing movement in Guam that is pushing to rethink the relationship between the island and the U.S. military.

Christine DeLisle: The relationship between the U.S. military and CHamorus in Guam is... to say that it's complicated is really an understatement.

And what Tina Delisle remembers about that Liberation Day celebration speaks to that issue.

Christine DeLisle: We were paired with someone from the U.S. military. So like I had a chaperone part of, you know, that parade was essentially... matching me up with a military personnel, a military man right? And when I, when I think about that and I think about the atrocities of the war and CHamoru survival during the war, I think. If I wanted to really celebrate that, it would make more sense for me to be celebrating these festivities with my family than some stranger. So it was this, uh, dare I say, you know, almost kind of prostituting of us to people we didn't know, you know, the military.

[THEME MUSIC PICKS UP]

Many Americans probably couldn’t even locate this potential frontline in a war with China on the map. And the people living there have no say in whether the U.S. actually goes to war, because Guam isn’t a state. It’s an unincorporated territory, which means the island is in some ways a possession of the U.S. The people of Guam have U.S. citizenship, but they can’t vote for president. The territory has no senator and just one member of the House of Representatives who can’t even cast a vote.

Christine DeLisle: Guam is... to this day one of the few places that remains on the United Nations list of non-self-governing territories.

So how did this tiny island become a key to U.S. strategy in the Pacific? And what does that mean for the people who live there?

I’m Peter Bergen. And this is In The Room.

[THEME MUSIC SURGES, THEN FADES]

Guam is known for its beautiful sandy beaches and resorts.

ARCHIVAL Guam Tourism Ad 1: Enter a world unlike your own. A paradise with a rich culture that is immersed in nature.

And is a particularly popular destination with tourists from nearby Asia.

ARCHIVAL Guam Tourism Ad 2: Half of the island is volcanic and the other half is limestone. We have a lot of rolling hills, waterfalls. Beaches.

But last summer… Guam was also at the center of an enormous two-week long U.S. military exercise called “Mobility Guardian.”

It was headed up by this guy…

Mike Minihan: Hello, Peter. How are you?

Peter Bergen: General, uh, thank you for doing this.

Mike Minihan: My goodness. It's a pleasure to be here.

Peter Bergen: This is just for our lawyers, which is, could you just tell us your name and what you do?

Mike Minihan: Certainly to the lawyers. Hello. My name is Mike Minahan. I am a general in the United States Air Force and I am the commander of Air Mobility Command.

Air Mobility Command is an organization within the U.S. Air Force.

Mike Minihan: When you think of us, you think of the big airplanes and our job is to do airlift, air medical evacuation, air refueling, and also the stuff on the ground that supports that. We call it the Global Air Mobility Support System, but think of it as the maintenance, the fueling, and the port operations that help move cargo around. You saw us in action when we did the evacuation in Afghanistan a couple of years ago. You see us in action when we run supplies, uh, per the President's directives, to support Ukraine. Um, and certainly there have been some earthquakes and, and natural disasters around the globe. So we're, we're the big lift portion, uh, the big jet portion of the United States Air Force.

General Minihan made headlines earlier this year when an internal memo he wrote about the threat posed by China leaked. One line in that memo got a ton of attention. It said quote, “I hope I am wrong. My gut tells me we will fight in 2025.”

Mike Minihan: I think you'd agree with me that there's rhetoric out there from the Chinese side on what their aspirations are. So I want to be so ready that they never want to take us on. The best thing I can do for the civilian leadership that ultimately decides this in the United States is have a force that's ready to take the field.

Peter Bergen: And I think you're referring to Chinese President Xi, uh, saying the People's Liberation Army needs to be able to take Taiwan by 2027.

Mike Minihan: Yes, I think the public record is clear when it comes to Xi and his aspirations. Now you're going to come back to me and have me answer Guam. So I'm ready for that. Go ahead.

Peter Bergen: In this exercise and more broadly, what is the role of Guam?

Mike Minihan: So we used Guam for what it is. It's an American air base in the Pacific. It was a pivotal position and we executed all of our mission sets from it. So we did airlift, air refueling, aeromedical evacuation, and we did the Global Air Mobility Support System, which is the ground elements, and we ensured that we could do exactly what we said, that we could explode into theater, that we could establish the hubs and spokes, and that we could operate at a high tempo throughout those. If this were to go down in the Pacific, Air Mobility Command would be the most relied upon force in the history of warfare. And I say that, you know, neither from a point of arrogance nor, nor seeking sympathy.

Mike Minihan: Guam is the United States of America. That alone makes Guam incredibly important, not just because of its position in the Pacific, but also because they're Americans. And so our duty to protect that territory and its population is, is sacred, and we take it very serious.

But long before the island became a key strategic base for quickly moving U.S. troops around the Pacific, it was home to a thriving, indigenous society, belonging to the CHamoru people.

[MUSIC SHIFTS]

Christine DeLisle: Guahan is the original Indigenous CHamoru name of the island. it's homeland of the CHamorus, the indigenous people of the Marianas, who arrived over 4,000 years ago, coming from Southeast Asia: Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, uh, with some Taiwan ancestry, and arriving on outrigger canoes. In CHamoru, we call those canoes the sakman.

Historian Tina Delisle grew up on the island.

Christine DeLisle: I'm born and raised in Guahan, raised in Yigo in the northern part of the island.

As DeLisle explains it, CHamorus have a deep connection to the water and the land. And they’re a matrilineal society.

Christine DeLisle: CHamorus long ago described to some of the European missionaries, at least one account, that they believed that the land and sea came from a woman. That oral history has carried on, and it centers the relationship between two siblings: Fu'una and Puntan. The story goes that Fu'una uses the parts of her body to create the skies, to create the sun, the moon, and the rainbows. And then she sacrificed herself and threw herself on the land and her body becomes what's known as Fouha Rock. And from there is where the CHamoru people originate. So she gives birth to the native inhabitants of the place. So it’s through the mother's line that families trace their land resources and their inheritance. Women play a very pivotal role in politics. We have a lot of CHamoru women leaders. Women figure very prominently in CHamoru society.

Over the centuries, Guam has been colonized and administered by different world powers. First by the Spanish, who arrived in the 16th century. Then, in 1898, the Spanish ceded Guam to the U.S. after they lost the Spanish-American War.

Early on under U.S. rule, it was the American Navy who governed the island. The naval governors implemented all kinds of racist laws, including ones that prohibited the use of the CHamoru language in schools.

Christine DeLisle: Many of the governors, uh, had this perception of the CHamorus as backward, uncivilized incapable of governing themselves. And many of the executive orders that they passed really exemplify that kind of attitude

And in 1901 in a series of decisions known as the insular cases, the U.S. Supreme Court determined the status of the island.

Christine DeLisle: The term “alien races” was used.

The court essentially ruled that because certain U.S. territories were inhabited by “alien races” the full U.S. constitution did not have to apply in those places.

Christine DeLisle: The Constitution and the rights protected under the Constitution don't necessarily follow where the flag goes.

And as a result of that decision, any legislation passed by Guam's local government — even today — can be overruled by Congress. As one writer put it, the territory is governed by consultation, not consent.

U.S. Navy rule continued until December 7th, 1941, when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, bringing the U.S. into World War II.

[ARCHIVAL SOUNDS OF JAPANESE PLANES, EXPLOSIONS]

Just hours later, Japanese troops invaded Guam overwhelming the tiny U.S. force on the island.

The Japanese began a brutal occupation committing torture, rape, and executions until…

ARCHIVAL 1940s Newscaster 1: Our Navy blasts its way forward on the road to Tokyo as American air might and warships lead up the Pacific offensive to recapture Guam from Japan.

ARCHIVAL 1940s Newscaster 2: Liberation is coming, but first a hail of steel from the 5th United States fleet. [ARCHIVAL SOUND OF NAVAL GUNS FIRING]

ARCHIVAL 1940s Newscaster 3: Natives had suffered greatly under our attack, but they welcomed us as liberators and presented us with an American flag, which, made by their own hands, had come from their hearts…

ARCHIVAL: [SINGING] Mr. Sam, Sam, my dear Uncle Sam thanks for coming back to Guam...

Christine DeLisle: Looking at the wartime experiences of CHamorus, that would really explain CHamoru loyalty and patriotism to the United States.

While the arrival of the Americans was welcomed by the CHamorus. The post-war period was a complicated one.

Christine DeLisle: A good way to describe what was happening post war, first of all, large tracts of land, CHamoru lands that were condemned and confiscated by the U.S. military. You're seeing CHamorus being dispossessed of their, of their land. For example, Hagåtña, which is the capital of the island, and also Sumay. Those were the two most populated villages in the island and Sumay, is, uh, seized by the United States military after World War II and that's what becomes what is now Naval Base, Guam. You know, many CHamorus still remember that. Even those who are patriotic and loyal to America, they, you know, some feel betrayed, some feel a bit of ambivalence about that.

In 1950, after years of campaigning, people in Guam were finally granted U.S. citizenship, although not the right to vote. Military rule officially ended, but the U.S. military stayed on.

During the Vietnam War, thousands of U.S. soldiers were stationed on Guam, which served as a way station for American bombers. After the war ended, the U.S. drew down its forces there. But over the past couple of decades, as Asian powers — especially China — have risen, the U.S. has sought to boost its deterrence in the region by increasing its military presence on Guam. And today the U.S. military is everywhere.

Christine DeLisle: If you would drive around the island, you would notice even the roads are named after the military. Purple Heart Highway. I didn't know this at the time growing up, I always thought Marine Drive was just named after the fact, you know, was because the road was in close proximity to the ocean.

The U.S. military owns nearly a third of Guam’s 217 square miles. U.S. defense spending on Guam has more than doubled since 2018 and accounts for almost half of Guam’s GDP. The U.S. military also employs A LOT of Guam’s residents. One out of every eight people on the island have served in the military. And people from Guam enlist in the military at a higher rate per capita than any U.S. state.

Christine DeLisle: Practically every CHamoru family has someone who's in the military and it's, to say there's a military presence in Guam… culturally, socially, economically, even at the level of CHamoru fiestas, you know, when we think about where we get the food, you know, from the commissaries. It really seeps into every facet of CHamoru life.

So people in Guam are paying very close attention to the rising frictions between the U.S. and China — and what both governments are saying about a key source of that tension: Taiwan.

[MUSIC SHIFTS]

China’s President Xi Jinping has said reunification between China and Taiwan, quote “must be fulfilled.” The U.S., for its part, is inclined to defend Taiwan, a democratic state that is the world’s biggest manufacturer — by far — of high-end microchips, which the U.S. economy and defense sector cannot do without.

Historically, the U.S. approach to Taiwan was to maintain “strategic ambiguity” about what the United States might do if Taiwan were attacked. Which is a fancy way of saying that the U.S. plans to keep the Chinese guessing about how it would respond if China attacked Taiwan. But in an interview last year with 60 Minutes, President Biden wasn't at all ambiguous about what he would do if the Chinese did attack the island.

ARCHIVAL Reporter: What should Chinese President Xi know about your commitment to Taiwan?

ARCHIVAL Joe Biden: We agree with what we signed on to a long time ago. And that there's a one China policy, and Taiwan makes their own judgments about their independence. We are not moving, we're not encouraging their being independent. We're not, that's their decision.

ARCHIVAL Reporter: But would U.S. forces defend the island?

ARCHIVAL Joe Biden: Yes, if in fact there was an unprecedented attack.

Oriana Mastro: So first and foremost I do believe that the United States has the intention to defend Taiwan.

Dr. Oriana Mastro is an expert on China and the Chinese military, which has been her focus for the past two decades. And while President Xi and President Biden, at their meeting in California in November, did agree to re-establish communication between the U.S. and Chinese militaries; they certainly didn't resolve the question of Taiwan.

Peter Bergen: You've written, “The rise of China presents the greatest challenge to U.S. and allied security and interests since the Cold War.” Why do you believe that's the case?

Oriana Mastro: I think that assessment is largely based on two factors. The first is Chinese capabilities. And the second, I don't like to say Chinese intentions, perhaps Chinese ambitions, because I think that what China wants in the world is nothing unique. They have a certain idea of the territory that is theirs, for example, and as a great power, they want other countries to accommodate their preferences. In terms of the capabilities, their military is now one of the most sophisticated militaries this world has ever seen. After 25 years of military modernization, I would argue that it's the only one that can truly go toe to toe with the U.S. military in certain scenarios in the region, uh, in Asia.

Peter Bergen: Looking at Guam, it seems to be an important strategic hub for the United States were there to be a conflict with China, why is that the case?

Oriana Mastro: We obviously, you know, have bases with troops there. We have facilities for replenishment and reloading of submarines, warehouses to stockpile munitions, other basic material for war. All of that would be located at Guam. Strategically, the most important thing is that the United States could move forces there and have enough of a support that it could operate from Guam in a contingency. And it's extremely reliable because the U.S. has political control there. so for, for U.S. military planners that like certainty, uh, Guam is also very attractive.

Peter Bergen: There's a Chinese missile nicknamed the Guam killer. What is this missile? What's it designed to do?

Oriana Mastro: So the DF-26 is an intermediate range ballistic missile. The vast majority of China's arsenal are these sort of intermediate range ballistic missiles, I think about 70%.

Peter Bergen: So this Guam killer missile as it's known is designed to take out targets in Guam from China?

Oriana Mastro: Right, exactly. The real driving factor of my concern is the military modernization. They will say, and I believe them, that they would prefer peaceful reunification. And they're patient. The problem is if peaceful reunification is not possible —that's a term that they use —and I don't think it is possible. And in which case they're, they want to be ready to use force. Historically China has not used force to try to unify with Taiwan, but they've never had the military to do it.

Peter Bergen: As you well know, and you've written, um, the Chinese haven't fought a, a major protracted war in Asia since the end of the Korean War, which is seven decades ago. They had a sort of not particularly successful foray into Vietnam in '79. Does the fact that they haven't fought any of these kinds of wars, uh, give them a little bit of pause?

Oriana Mastro: Oh, absolutely. I mean, that's the, that's the reason we haven't seen this war happen yet.

[MUSIC SHIFTS]

But people like General Minihan of the U.S. Air Mobility Command don’t want to leave anything up to chance. A position he made clear in that leaked memo where he warned that the U.S. might go to war with China as soon as 2025.

Peter Bergen: Your memo, I can't not ask you about it. You wrote it a year ago. Do you still feel the same way?

Mike Minihan: ...I understand that when the inside voice goes outside, that it can lose context.... I do believe that... the war is not inevitable.... I stand by the urgency and I stand by the actions as described. We have to be urgent with our readiness so that we are ready now. Ready now is the best thing that we can be for deterrence and ready now is the best thing we can be should deterrence fail to win decisively. So... when it comes to the memo, you know, the urgency and the action, uh, is what I stand by. You cannot disguise the enormous things that need to happen so that we can stand behind that readiness.

Part of that readiness meant actually doing that exercise this past summer.

Mike Minihan: So we took about 70 airplanes, 3,000 airmen, and we deployed as rapidly as we could out of the mainland of the United States into the Pacific.

It was the first time the exercise was held in the vastness of the Pacific rather than on the U.S. mainland, where it had been done in the past.

Mike Minihan: We decided to move the exercise into the actual geography of the Pacific. In doing so we would actually feel the tyrannies of geography and that's both distance and water. You can only understand the Pacific if you’ve served in the Pacific. To really feel the distance, to really feel the vastness of the water and to understand, you know, how big that operating area is.

Mike Minihan: I'll give you an example in Europe. You know, Europe also has the challenge of distance, but it doesn't have the challenge of water. So there's an enormous NATO construct that provides many airfields throughout the European continent from which coalition partner, ally, U.S. forces can operate from. That does not exist to the same extent in the Pacific. So, especially air mobility command, we need a runway. We need certain support functions to happen on the ground. And therefore, you know, it requires islands and countries that have that type of infrastructure for us to do our job. And I think Mobility Guardian demonstrated, very strongly, um, that we are ready. We have work to do, but we are ready.

Peter Bergen: Do the Chinese take any messages from these exercises? Are they observing them?

Mike Minihan: My experience in the Pacific tells me that they've, they've got a keen eye on all things in the Pacific. So it wouldn't surprise me if they did notice. What I would hope is that they would look at us and they saw a credible force that was ready and had the will to back up, uh, what our partners and allies want in that region.

[MUSIC SHIFTS]

So the U.S. military continues to invest in Guam, but that comes at a cost for the people who are actually living there.

ARCHIVAL Crowd of protestors: [CHANTING] Biba CHamorus! Biba CHamorus! [fades under narration]

NARRATION Back in 2005, when the Pentagon announced it was moving 8,000 troops from a base in Okinawa, Japan to a new one in Guam called Camp Blaz, there were many residents who believed it would provide an economic boost to the island. But not everyone welcomed the increase of troops.

ARCHIVAL Crowd of protestors: [CHANTING] Marine base has got to go! Hey hey, ho ho! Marine base has got to go!

Christine DeLisle: When the Department of Defense announces that it's going to transfer several thousand Marines to Guam at Camp Blaz. You began to see people really trying to analyze what the military's plans were. Many of us, myself included, were just going through roughly 10,000 pages of the draft environmental impact statement. And there were only so many months that the people of Guam had to review the statement.

People like Tina DeLisle felt like they were sidelined in the process. And some were particularly frustrated because remember, in Guam they don’t get a say in these things the way other Americans might since they can't vote for president and the representative they do send to Congress doesn’t get a vote.

The plans for the base moved forward. And during construction of Camp Blaz ancient CHamoru burial sites were discovered.

Christine DeLisle: There were many CHamoru burial sites that were desecrated. Um, so, so sacred lands.

A lawsuit filed by environmental and indigenous organizations claimed construction at Camp Blaz destroyed 1200 acres of Guam's last remaining limestone tree forest, an important habitat for some of the world’s most endangered species.

Christine DeLisle: The military always has its plan for mitigation, you know, ‘well, we're going to go ahead and build, we're going try to reconstruct those limestone forests.’ You know, you're talking about, uh, an area that took only took a millennia to evolve, right?

The lawsuit also said a site selected to build a live firing range on the base is quote “One of the most ecologically and culturally sensitive places on Guam.”

ARCHIVAL Speaker of the Guam Legislature: Håfa Adai, welcome to the Guam Congress Building.

In March this year, the Pentagon announced plans for a multimillion-dollar missile defense system on the island.

ARCHIVAL Speaker of the Guam Legislature: So we’ve got one agenda item that is a town hall… [fading under narration] … on Department of Defense's proposed 360-degree enhanced integrated air and missile defense system, EIAMDS, in Guam.

At a town hall meeting over the summer, where the public had a chance to learn more about the plan, a former U.S. congressional delegate for Guam spoke out against the military buildup.

ARCHIVAL Robert Underwood: In the case of conflict between the United States and China, Guam's intended role is to be the first line of attack, not the first line of defense. In this regard, we are being asked to be a kind of sacrificial lamb.

And there were others who also spoke out against it.

ARCHIVAL Town Hall attendee 1: The only conversations that are happening are how do we ready ourselves for war. Um, and it's really important that we measure these concerns against the long history of environmental racism and environmental degradation and desecration, uh, to our land, waters, and our heritage.

ARCHIVAL Town Hall attendee 2: My children's lives, all of our children's lives is at stake. We're talking about war with China where we get destroyed for imperial purposes. And when things go down, most of us, we can't just fly out somewhere else when it's looking hot. We're stuck here. That's all I got to say.

But there were also plenty of people who welcomed the added defense systems, and some of them spoke to a local reporter.

ARCHIVAL Guam Local 1: Let's all welcome them. It's for the betterment of the security of the Marianas island.

ARCHIVAL Guam Local 2: It's important for the protection of Guam, just, just in case some, uh, like other countries like China or North Korea attack Guam, then it's good for our protection. And I'm for it.

[MUSIC SHIFTS]

Christine DeLisle: You'll have some people who'll say, this is great. We're feeling really protected. And the military buildup that's happening now uses that rhetoric. This is about instilling genuine security for the island. And then you have others who say, we wouldn't be in this predicament if we didn't have a large military presence and if we didn't have this buildup happening.

[MUSIC SHIFTS, FADES]

Peter Bergen: Dr. Mastro, what does Xi Jinping want?

Oriana Mastro: I mean, I would be like a billionaire right now if I had a magic ball to see into, you know, Xi Jinping. I will say that his behavior, what he says, seems relatively rational and predictable. I always argued that we have a fundamental conflict of interest. Our two worlds can't sort of live side by side. It doesn't mean conflict is inevitable, or at least I should say, I like to say conflict is inevitable, but we can delay it forever. I think, you know, the people of China don't dislike American people. American people don't dislike the people of China. Actually, on kind of the people-to-people level, we've always had very positive, uh, engagements. Generally speaking, because of how much our two countries benefit from the international order, and that in the age of not only nuclear weapons, but also because I think this war would be, we can keep it at the conventional level, precision guided munitions, of which we've never fought a war, a large scale war since the advent of those.

Oriana Mastro: And so it's quite possible that we continue to sort of jockey back and forth on some of these issues, try to protect our own interests, our own people, promote our own power and influence, and that this continues on in perpetuity. That is the best we can hope for.

For now, on Guam, Tina Delisle says the conversation and the activism both around the U.S. military buildup and the potential threat from China will continue.

Christine DeLisle: It just really depends on who you're speaking with. You'll hear people say, ‘there's this imminent war with China, and we need to really build up our current defense system.’ So, you're seeing different generations who are patriotic to the military may have retired from the military, but they also know that they didn't have the means. They didn't have the political means to really speak out against the military, lest they be construed as unpatriotic. And that's the last thing they wanted to do. So it's really interesting because you see that older generation, maybe in their 70s and 80s, saying, we never had the means to really speak out, so you go ahead and do that work.

And for her personally, there's one thing that is certain.

Christine DeLisle: When we're talking about the military buildup, we also have to keep front and center Guam's political status, because we wouldn't be in this predicament, if not for political status. We would have more of a say.

[MUSIC FLOURISHES, FADES]

###

If you want to learn some more about the topics we covered in this episode, we recommend

The Costs of Conversation: Obstacles to Peace Talks in Wartime by Oriana Skylar Mastro; Placental Politics: CHamoru Women, White Womanhood, and Indigeneity under U.S. Colonialism in Guam by Christine DeLisle; How to Hide an Empire by Daniel Immerwahr; and The Conquering Tide: War in the Pacific Islands, 1942-1944 by Ian Toll.

The last two are available on Audible.

And I wanted to let you know In the Room will be taking a short holiday break for the next two weeks. We'll be back to our regular weekly schedule on January 9th. In the meantime, if you're enjoying this show, please consider telling your friends and family — and giving us a nice rating on your podcast app of choice. Spreading the word about your favorite podcasts is the best way to help them grow!

Enjoy the season and Happy New Year!

CREDITS:

IN THE ROOM WITH PETER BERGEN is an Audible Original.

Produced by Audible Studios and FRESH PRODUCE MEDIA

This episode was produced by Alexandra Salomon, with help from Luke Cregan and Jamila Huxtable.

It was sound designed by Steven Jackson.

Our executive producer is Alison Craiglow.

Katie McMurran is our technical director.

Our staff also includes Laura Tillman, Erik German, Holly DeMuth, Sandy Melara, and JP Swenson.

Theme music is by Joel Pickard

Our Executive Producers for Fresh Produce Media are Colin Moore, Jason Ross and Joe Killian.

Our Head of Development is Julian Ambler.