Note: Text has been lightly edited for clarity and does not match audio exactly.
Margaret Hargrove: Hi, listeners. I'm Audible Editor Margaret Hargrove, and today I am honored to be speaking with the bestselling author of many award-winning YA novels, Jason Reynolds. He is here to talk about his new book, Twenty-four Seconds from Now... Welcome, Jason.
Jason Reynolds: Thank you so much.
MH: Jason, you've seemingly done it all in the YA book world, between your countless bestsellers, notably All American Boys and Stamped, serving as the National Ambassador for Young People's Literature, and everything else in between. It feels almost impossible to say there's something you haven't done, but surprisingly there is one thing, at least until now. At a time when candor in publishing and books about the challenges kids face during adolescence and puberty are coming into question with the rise in book banning, why does now feel like the right time to not only write your first romance book, but a romance that pays tribute to young Black love told from the perspective of a Black male teen who is on the brink of having sex for the first time?
JR: Such a good question. I'll say this, I don't know if the book was written in response to the social climate as much as it was written to address some of the things that I just have been considering for a very long time. I mean, one of those things is that puppy love, especially for me at least, for Black kids feels radical, right? To see it. Puppy love for all young people, by the way, is a radical act. But to me, to see Black kids love each other at that age—and it's healthy and it's strange and it's awkward and it's funny—feels radical because it's raw. And if we can figure out how to talk about it in a way that is healthy and a way that will perpetuate health going forward, then that radical love becomes revolutionary. I use that word to mean transformative. It becomes a transformative thing and it shapes the way we move through the world.
The impetus, though, I think was years ago. I was in a prison, in a juvenile detention center, and I was in the library of the juvenile detention center, and the librarian asked me what I thought the most-read books were. I pulled out Walter Dean Myers and anything that had to do with a gritty, tough environment. And she said, "Nope. Romance novels." And the question for me was, of course, why? And she said, "Because all these kids are locked in jail during the moments of their lives where they'd be exploring and experiencing their first loves." And they want to know, or at least imagine, the good girl saving the bad boy, right? The good girl sort of being nonjudgmental of the boy who might be a bit of a knucklehead.
I left there thinking to myself, it's a beautiful thing that they're reading those books, but it's unfortunate that they didn't feel like they could read those books when they were free. And so what if we could write a book that they felt like they could read when they were on the outside of prison? And what if we could write a book that would expose what it feels like to be in the prison of yourself, just because you're never allowed to talk about your fears as it pertains to your first sexual experiences if you happen to have been born male. Let alone if you have been born Black and male. And so that's where this all comes from.
MH: I hope this isn't too personal of a question, but I'm curious how much of your own personal story is interwoven into Neon's story?
JR: Quite a bit. I mean, for me, growing up, first of all my life was a little different in terms of my high school years because I was always two years younger than everybody else. I got to high school at 12 years old, so for me the exploration of these things happened a little bit earlier because of an overcompensation to the fact that I needed to make sure I was acting the age of my classmates and not mine, right? I didn't want anyone to know or treat me like the little boy, as the young boy, even though I was a small person. I hit my growth spurt a little later than everybody else, and my emotional maturity had to progress quickly in order for me to make it in that environment, which meant that my sexual exploration had to happen a little sooner too. I felt the pressure of it a little sooner as well.
The talk that happens in the book with the mom and our main character, Neon, is exactly the way the talk happened for me. That's verbatim my mother's talk. I was fortunate to have parents who were really, really, really good at having conversations around these sorts of things. My mom and my father were both very kind to me, and my mother wanted to make sure that there was no shame and that I developed sexual health at a young age, that I understood that I wasn't doing anything wrong, that my feelings weren't wrong feelings, that I didn't need to feel shame around a natural desire. But that I needed to be responsible, not only with that desire but also with what it meant to be a male, a boy in those situations with young girls. And that there was a responsibility that we both had, but particularly I had, just because of power dynamics and how she knew men could be. So, it's always like, "These are human beings, Jason. These are not pieces of furniture for you to jump around on." That's what she said to me.
"All my work is written with the same thing in mind. If it is not an adventure to me, it will not be an adventure to you."
So, I knew early on, and my father, I have to give him credit, God bless the dead. He's no longer with us, but I have to give the old man credit. He understood the importance of making sure his boys found their power through tenderness, because he was a tender man. And we understood that to be gentle and to be kind and to be patient and to be respectful had nothing to do with curbing our sexuality. It was not a muzzle on our sexual urges. If anything, those were the components that would create the safe space for us to explore those sexual urges in a way that could grow us into healthy young men and women with healthy sexual relationships with ourselves.
MH: Well, you definitely do that in Twenty-four Seconds from Now...
JR: Thank you.
MH: So, the narrative style of Twenty-four Seconds from Now... feels so fresh and unique with the way you rewound Neon and Aria's heartfelt romance in reverse chronology, showcasing its development from 24 seconds before the big act to 24 minutes before, then 24 hours before, 24 days before, 24 weeks before, and finally, 24 months before. So, I have a few questions to unpack here. My first question is, what is the significance of 24? Why did that number stick out to you?
JR: Oh, honestly, it's arbitrary. I needed to figure out how to land at the two-year mark, that’s all. I needed to make this around the anniversary, and so I knew that the 24 months part was going to be the beginning of their relationship. I needed the continuity. I mean, there's a part of me that wanted to play around with a 24-second shot clock, but there's no other basketball reference in the book, so it didn't hold up. But that was a part of it, “Oh, we could play around with a shot clock.” We always use sports references to talk about sex in boy world, right? In boyhood, it's always bases you run, you know, all sorts of strange sports references [laughs] that we use to talk about, or not talk about, sex. But it didn't hold up because there's no other basketball references. So, it really was just a convenient number and it was an organizing tool.
MH: But still, why did you want to structure the novel in reverse chronology? Why not start from them meeting and progress through the two years of their relationship? Why are we seeing it in reverse?
JR: This is a good question, but it's a really practical answer. Number one, I understand that these sorts of books work if you can hook the young person from the jump. So, I gotta start with the juicy bits. We gotta get right into it. We need to begin where the excitement is so that I can make sure that a 15-year-old reader is locked in, even if it's because they believe it's going to be something salacious happening.
On the flip side, I also understood that every parent and every teacher and every adult, including myself, did not want to read teenagers actually having sex, right? I didn't actually want to write a sex scene, because I am not a teenager. And to imagine 16-, 17-year-olds having sex is very hard for me at this age, especially because I interact with teenagers every single day. It can get a little dicey. And it's not that I could not do it, it's that I'm also fully aware, again, we have to be honest about the way things are coded and the way things read in the public space. I think this would have been an easier story to write a sex scene for if I were a woman. I find it to be much more difficult to write this, and for it to be received in the way that I mean it or would have meant, being a cis, heterosexual male. It could have run the risk of coming across as a little slimy and a little perverse.
So, as an artist, we make choices, right? And I believe in the sophistication of art. I think there's a way for you to say every single thing without having to be so on the nose. And so we'll start from just 24 seconds before all of that happens, and you'll still get all of the exciting parts, and then we'll move backward, further away from it so that I never have to actually dabble in writing a teenage sex scene, which, honestly, I just did not want to make.
MH: So, in writing it, did you write it backwards?
JR: I wrote it backwards. I wrote it exactly as it is in the book. Because I needed to create the challenge for myself. All my work is written with the same thing in mind. If it is not an adventure to me, it will not be an adventure to you. So, I don't always know what's going to happen. I don't always know if I can pull it off. It always feels really difficult when I'm in the middle of it because I don't plan very well. I'm not the most organized man. I don't outline. I just kind of jump in and try to figure it out, so it's a lot of back and forth. Does this work with this? Does this connect to this? How can I make sure that this makes sense later in the story? How can I jot a note here in the margins and say, "Come back to this later. Come back to this in three chapters." How can I make sure that every symbol is working? Because there's tons of symbolism in all of my books. That I can make sure every symbol is holding up and is consistent. Which is why the 24 seconds thing doesn't work for the basketball reference. But at first, that was a part of it, and I was like, "Ah, it's not working. I'll take it out." So, I wrote it just as it's written because I wanted to go through the gauntlet myself so that it could feel like an experience for the reader.
MH: It definitely is. So, I'd love to talk a little bit about the performance. Actor Guy Lockard has become your go-to narrator it seems, and he does a really fantastic job here in Twenty-four Seconds from Now... I counted in the Audible catalog, and I believe this is the 12th book of yours that he's either narrated or co-narrated. All American Boys was the first book of yours he co-narrated, in 2015. I'm just curious, how did he get on your radar, and can you tell us a little bit about what your working relationship with him is like now, 11 books later?
JR: Oh, he's one of my best friends. I grew up with him. Yeah, I've known him since I was 15. Like, he’s literally one of the closest human beings to me in life. To be honest with you, I know sometimes that my publishers probably were like, "We need to shake it up a bit," but I always push back a little bit. I know they're probably like, "All right, enough already." But for me, to be quite honest with you, I don't really trust a lot of people with my work. I don't let anyone read it except for my editor. I don't have any writing-group buddies. I have lots of mentors, but even they don't get to read it. My agent doesn't get to read my work. No one sees my work, and so because I have all these weird insecurities around my work and how it's perceived, how it's read, how it's edited, everything, I feel safe with him taking on this work because I know he knows me. He knows my tone of voice. He knows my sense of humor. He was there for a lot of the things that happened in my books. A lot of the things that are being referenced, some of which are pulled from real events, he was there for.
"I wanted to say, no, boys happen to be human beings with feelings, emotions, insecurities, and anxieties, and all the other things that we pretend that we don't have, but everyone knows that we do, though no one seems to talk about it."
And in my mind, even though I'm sure my team would rather me shake it up, in my mind, the way I think about it is, “Well, what does this look like 20 books in? What is the legacy that might be built?” Because I believe in that. We don't do that as much anymore. Nowadays, everybody's like, "Let's just move around." What happens if you can make this thing where these two people made all of this? They were in sync and they had a synergy and they understood each other. I never even have to talk to Guy about anything when it comes to this work, unless he calls me and says, "How do you pronounce this name?” But other than that, Guy knows what to do because he knows whose work he's working with. And that's the reason why we keep working together.
I hope, honestly, that we continue to do so for at least a few more, because I really value longstanding relationships when it comes to the making of art. I really do. And I think it's a lost art, unless it's editor-writer. But I want it to be like, well, what about a voice actor and a writer? What if we did all these books together? What about the same artist for the book covers? I think there's something there that we should explore, and I'm trying my best. I'm holding on for dear life, because every time they're like, "Here are our list of people we want you to look at," I'm like, "What about Guy?" [laughs]
MH: So, have you listened to Twenty-four Seconds from Now... yet? What do you think of his performance?
JR: I haven't listened yet, to be honest. I've been a little busy with some serious life stuff, so I haven't listened quite yet. But I think I just told a lie, because we actually did have a conversation this time, because we talked on the phone and he said, "I'm about to go in and knock out Twenty-four Seconds." And I said, "Hey, I need this to really go off. Like, I need you..." And he's like, "J, you know me. I got it. You know that I'm going to do everything I can."
Because this is a tricky book, and it's a book that I think a lot of people are going to hopefully really love, but there are going to be just as many people who are ready to snub their noses at this and call me all sorts of names, say I'm sexualizing children, all the things, because of the climate that we're in. And I want to make something good enough for even those, who are going to be like, "Man, this is something. This is something that we should at least be discussing." And when we listen to it, I want them to feel the same energy, like, "Wow, this is really something beautiful." It's not perverse. It's human, it's honest, it's tender, and it's beautiful, right? That's what I want to hear.
MH: You definitely need to listen, and I'll tell you two scenes to listen out for. The chicken finger song was, like, [laughs] that was definitely a laugh-out-loud moment.
JR: He's also a musician, so I'm so curious to see what he did with this.
MH: Yes, and then also the funeral scene. He definitely went off on that one.
JR: That's awesome.
MH: So those two scenes alone are worth a listen.
JR: That's great.
MH: Are you a listener, though, in general? Is there anything you've listened to this year that you particularly loved?
JR: Oh, God, I am a listener. What have I listened to this year? I listened to Charlie and the Chocolate Factory on Audible. I listened to Julie Otsuka's The Buddha in the Attic, which was beautiful. And her book Swimmers, which was beautiful. I always am listening to Song of Solomon, and I just every now and then put it on and, you know, Beloved and Toni Morrison, even though I can only do about 20 minutes at a time. One, because the language is so rich, and two, because they're recorded at a time where Toni's voice had already began to sort of deteriorate a bit, and that gives me so much texture, but for shorter stints of time, you know what I mean? I listen to Toni all the time, just kind of put it on and let that roll.
A little bit of everything. I'm always sort of perusing. I'm just so happy that now I can go on there and hit the button and it just comes right on my phone. Because there was a moment where you had to do some extra steps to get your audiobooks from Audible to Amazon, to this to that and to get it on there. But now you can just go on your app and hit the button and you have your book, so it's great. I love audiobooks.
MH: Cool. Well, thanks for being such an ambassador for Audible [laughs]. I love that. So, you fittingly have a lovely blurb from Judy Blume, who says, and I'll quote, "Jason Reynolds has done it again. Fresh from start to finish, this is what it could be, should be. If only we were all as lucky as Aria. Girls, and everyone, wait for your Neon." I'm also waiting for my Neon [laughs]. So, for an acclaimed YA author such as yourself who has made such a significant contribution to the canon of YA books over the last decade and more, what does it mean to you to have Judy Blume's glowing endorsement for Twenty-four Seconds?
JR: Oh, it's the biggest endorsement I could have asked for. There are a lot of things that I've been fortunate enough to experience in this life as it pertains to my work. And there are some friendships that I've been fortunate to create along that journey. LeVar Burton is one of them. He's a good friend of mine. He's somebody that I always can rely on to check on me and make sure I'm taking care of myself. Jacqueline Woodson is like a big sister to me. Walter Dean Myers put his hand on me and gave me wonderful advice before passing away. His son is one of my closest friends, Christopher Myers. And Judy Blume is another one of those people who I've been fortunate enough to really just, you know, I used to send her letters. She hates snail mail, but I used to just write her letters and be her pen pal, rather. We've talked about Lactaid and the importance of Lactaid in both of our lives [laughs]. Like, just regular stuff.
"It's really a book about a boy trying to understand himself, but he's trying to understand himself on the precipice of a moment that is meant to express an unbearable love that he has for his girlfriend. Now, if that's romantic, then cool."
But for her to give me a blurb—which she does not do, by the way—I'll forever be indebted. I just really hope that the book stands up to that blurb. I hope this wasn't a wasted blurb for her. I hope people really say, "All right, let's give it a shot if Judy said it's good." Forever was one of the other inspirations for this book, though this book is not anything like Forever, because Forever could never be made again, for lots of reasons. One, nobody can write what Judy wrote when Judy wrote it, and two, the publishing industry would never publish Forever today, just because times change and it would never see the light of day, a book like that.
But the courage it took to write Forever and the honesty of that book, I wanted to find a way to do that. Because it hadn't been done since then, especially from the perspective of the boy. It's just not a thing that, you know, boys are just walking penises, according to all of literature and all of the world, you know what I mean? But I wanted to say, no, boys happen to be human beings with feelings, emotions, insecurities, and anxieties, and all the other things that we pretend that we don't have, but everyone knows that we do, though no one seems to talk about it. And so shout-out to Judy for just putting that battery in my pack.
MH: You sort of already answered my next question, but Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret, for me, was the most significant book of my youth at the time. It almost feels like it's required reading for girls. Even my own 11-year-old has read it and loved it. So, do you feel with Twenty-four Seconds from Now... you're ringing in a new era of the coming-of-age YA book for a new generation with a novel that's really tailor-made not only for Black teens but Black teen boys in particular?
JR: I sure hope so, right? I think there's some real basic things in this book that are never discussed that should be discussed. Basic stuff like washing yourself, right? It seems like such a minuscule and almost futile thing to discuss, but the truth of the matter is that there are so many young men who are never taught how to properly take their hygiene seriously. And then they get to an age where they're ready to be intimate, right? I mean, even as a grown man, there are grown women in my life, friends of mine, who have terrible stories about grown men who just don't take their hygiene—so, like, just referencing or even having the conversation around bras, right? Because the truth is all of us have felt this way. We just never say it. We're all so confused at first. Like, how does this work? It's like a magic trick that we're supposed to pull off.
I remember talking to my—ooh, I shouldn't put him on here, but I will because he lives in a different world—but my little brother. When my little brother was coming up and he was ready to take this step, he came to me and he said, "Man, I think I'm ready to have sex with my girlfriend," and I said, "Okay, well, let's talk. What are your concerns?" And he said, "What if I can't get her bra off?" And I'm sitting here and I try not to laugh because he was really concerned about this. This was causing great anxiety for this kid. He's like, "I think I'm going to practice on Mom's bras." Which is what you see in the story, right? We won't give too much away.
And I'm like, "Please don't do that. I think that's a bad idea. I don't think you should play with your mother's underwear.” He said, "Well, what should I do?" And my response was, "Tell her, first of all, but second of all, you won't believe this, but she can take it off herself. She can undress herself, and it might even be kind of hot." Like, it's so much pressure on him to do what he sees in the movies. And so to be able to tell him this, "You can just communicate, bro. You don't gotta get back there fumbling around. You can just communicate, and I promise you, if you're honest, I never met a young lady who didn't extend grace to an honest young man."
Because everybody's nervous. We're all afraid. None of us know what’s going on. I mean, just basic, basic, basic things that I really want young men to take from this. Even the sister character in the story, I really, really love her character because when I grew up, my sister was dating. And I think it's important that young men know that young women get to do what they want to do. Like, if she is dating a few boys, she's allowed to do so. And you can cast aspersions and all these judgments, even though you have no idea what that situation is, you don't know what's going on, but she has a right to date. Like, that is a real thing. She can go on a date with one boy on Monday and go on another date with a boy on Wednesday and she has every right to do so. And if she's dating you, the only thing she owes you is communication. That's it, right? And I wanted to make sure that that was a real thing so that boys can learn that at 17, instead of being angry Black men at 30 because they feel like they had their hearts broken because they believed something that wasn't true based on their egos and not based on the facts.
MH: So, now that you've written your first YA romance, do you want to do it again? What's next for you?
JR: It's so funny, because I've gotten this question before, and I think it's interesting because this book is being talked about like a romance, and I like that and I think it's good, but that's not the way I think about it. I think of this book as a love story, and I think that the difference is, and I know the romance community is going to kill me for this, but I think that the difference is, for me, is that the book is not actually about the romance. The book is about the interior of this boy. It's really about him. It's about the interior and everything that he's going through internally as he's trying to suss out his love and feelings toward his girlfriend.
There are romantic things that happen, but it's really just about his feelings and fears and emotions and excitement around the love that he has for this girl, and if I look at it that way, then the truth is, is that I've written many love stories. The truth is that The Boy in the Black Suit is the same thing. It's a boy dealing with his emotions, but who's also dealing with the fact that there's a girl who has come into his life who is helping him navigate them. I mean, we could go through all the books, but so many of these books, even when I think about some of the ones like Miles Morales, there's Alicia, he loves Alicia in my stories. He loves this girl, and he's trying to figure out how he can get closer to her, what does he need to do to get her to see that he's not a sucker?
And so for me, will I do it again? Well, I've done it. A lot. And so, probably, right? Will it be called a romance again? Probably not. I think that's a very specific sort of marketing tool to move the book. I think it is the most romantic book that I've made, for sure. But for me, when I think about it, it's really a book about a boy trying to understand himself, but he's trying to understand himself on the precipice of a moment that is meant to express an unbearable love that he has for his girlfriend. Now, if that's romantic, then cool.
MH: That's a bonus.
JR: That's a bonus.
MH: Cool. Cool. Well, listeners, Twenty-four Seconds from Now... by Jason Reynolds is available on Audible. Once again, Jason has authentically tapped into the way teens think and delivered a warm and heartfelt story of one boy's growth as he takes a huge step in his relationship. Jason, thank you so much for being here. It was a pleasure.
JR: My pleasure, thank you.
Check out some of Jason's favorite audiobooks through the years.
