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Katie O'Connor: Hi, listeners. I'm Audible Editor Katie O'Connor, and today I'm privileged to be speaking with Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, whose memoir Lovely One details her life's history and her journey to the highest court in the land. Welcome, Justice Jackson.
Ketanji Brown Jackson: Thank you so much for having me.
KO: There are so many people who have had such a profound influence in your life—your family, your parents, of course; your mother, an educator; your father, a lawyer, who you used to work alongside when you were little; your Aunt Carolyn, who picked your name, which means “lovely one”; your husband, Patrick, and your daughters; your debate coach, Mrs. Berger; Judge Patti Saris, whom you clerked for; and then, of course, Justice Breyer, who you also clerked for and whose vacated seat you ultimately took over in the Supreme Court. Obviously, you are the product of the love and support of a wonderful community, but was there one moment or one relationship that you really feel was critical or was perhaps reflective of a turning point in your journey?
KBJ: Well, as you mentioned, there are so, so many people who really poured into me over the years as I was growing up, to help me develop what I think, for me at least, has been a pretty critical aspect of my accomplishment, which is just to develop the self-esteem and the sense of grounding around who I am and what I can do that was necessary to continue to move forward on this path. If you made me choose, the most critical might have been, actually, Fran Berger and my experience as a debater. I actually was a speaker, I did the speech part of speech and debate, and up to that point, I had mostly been nurtured by family. And you sort of expect for your family to tell you that you can do anything you want. But here was a person who was not in my immediate family, who was my coach in high school, and who just took such an interest in my development.
As I say in the book, she taught me how to reason and how to write, and how to lean into my own abilities, even when there were obstacles to be overcome. And I started to perform well in debate, and that helps to develop one's own sense of your capacity and potential. And of course, being on the debate team was my first glimpse at Harvard, and everything else that happened in my life, to include finding my husband, flowed from my connection to the university. So, my high school experience on my speech and debate team was crucial.
KO: Listening to you talk about the performances and the competitions, it made me want to go back in time and join a debate team myself, I have to be honest. What might you say to others looking to mentor young, promising people towards their dreams?
KBJ: Well, I think it's so important to provide the encouragement to really find what this person's interest, what your mentee's interest is, what their talent is, what their potentially unique contribution is to some field or endeavor, and try to help them to see it and to believe that they can do great things with that characteristic. I just think, as I said, having a parent tell you, "Oh, you're wonderful" is not the same, in a way, as having someone who doesn't have that kind of stake in your future really showing you attention and encouragement.
KO: Absolutely. I am a Patrick stan, after listening to Lovely One.
KBJ: [Laughs]
KO: As you just mentioned, you met your husband, Dr. Patrick Jackson, while at Harvard together. Your support of each other and the big dreams that you both had was so inspiring. And at one moment in the book, you and Patrick are grappling with a critical parenting decision, and Patrick says that you two will do what you've always done, quote, "Communication and shared sacrifice." What else has contributed to your success as a couple?
KBJ: Well, I think mutual respect has really been so much a part of our developing relationships. We each understood pretty early on that we were both sort of destined for pretty substantial careers. Just to give your listeners a little bit of background, Patrick and I met in college, but we both, in college, had decided that he wanted to be a doctor and I was going to law school, and that we both wanted to do as well as we could in our respective professional areas, and really respected and supported those choices.
What it meant, especially early on in our career, was that we tried to take turns in fronting whichever person's career needed to be focused on at the time. So, when my husband was in residency, I kind of laid off a little bit in terms of pushing forward in my job. We went back to Boston, for example, at one point when I knew I wasn't going to work there long-term because he had to train. Then he came to DC when I was doing the Supreme Court clerkship because he knew that that was very important. And so when we look back, we see that we really kind of took turns back and forth in our professional development. But I would say it was out of respect, because we wanted both of our careers to be fulfilled.
"I am mindful that people are watching, and they are interested and they are trying to see what will happen to have a Black woman on the court. And of course the goal is eventually to have that not matter."
KO: As I was listening to this book and listening to the challenges that you and Patrick faced as working parents, I kept turning to my own husband and saying, "This could be us" [laughs]. Because given your amazing careers, I hadn't stopped to think that you might face similar working-mom challenges, but your candor and vulnerability really underscored for me how universal these challenges are. You dealt with conflicting work schedules with your husband, differing school pickup times, and when the children were younger, pumping at work in less-than-ideal circumstances. At one point you even moved to a smaller practice because you needed a more predictable work schedule that allowed for more time with your then-toddler. What advice do you have for parents, for working mothers in particular, that are drowning under the weight of that seemingly unattainable desire for balance?
KBJ: Well, I mean, it is certainly not easy. I think one of the reasons why I decided to be so forthcoming in the book is because I wanted people to know that you can survive it, you can get through it. You can, when your kids eventually get old enough to start taking care of themselves, attain whatever professional goals that you had hoped for or set for yourself early on. But there is this time when your children are little and when your family has really significant needs, where so many mothers and fathers struggle to make sure that you get it all in. I would say to the extent that you can look for people to help you, you need help, don't expect that you can do it all on your own, because that's just not a realistic expectation.
So, what we did was basically used every dollar of our discretionary funds to pay for nannies at first and then au pairs, because we had work schedules that were unpredictable or that had very long hours and we needed to have coverage for our kids when they were little. And so that was our kind of big investment early on. And then we formed relationships with other families. I talk at one point about what we called our village, the village. This was the group of parents who also had kids in the afterschool program. Because for afterschool, you have a certain deadline, you have to pick up your kid by six o'clock or something, or else they start charging you substantial sums of money. And, of course, you're inconveniencing the afterschool staff. So, we basically formed a pool where you could say, "I'm running late, can someone else get my kid today?" And this group of parents were sort of co-responsible for making sure our kids were picked up from school. It was really invaluable for us. So, look for relationships with other parents who are at a similar stage in their lives. You see them on the soccer field at times. You see them, obviously, in the school. That turned out to be crucial for us.
And then rely on each other and understand that you have mutual responsibility for taking care of this little person and getting them where they need to go and into the world. I mean, those were the main things, I think, that we did that helped us through, but absolutely know and understand that it is a very challenging time of life.
KO: Yeah, community is so key, and again, really appreciated how you were open about the help that you did have, yes, from those parents, but also from the nannies as well. I think that is so important to so many working parents trying to be all the things to all of the people.
Some of the most poignant moments in the book for me were when you were talking about your daughter Talia's neurodiversities. You knew for years that she was brilliant, but it took a long time to get the diagnoses and know that some of, as you say, her brilliant traits were actually neurodiversities as well. It wasn't until she was 11 that you finally got an autism spectrum diagnosis, and you shared that if you'd known what was going on, you would've quit your job to attend to her needs. First of all, I want to say thank you. I have two neurodiverse children, and I felt this so viscerally. It is a daily battle of wondering if you're doing the right thing.
KBJ: Yes.
KO: Obviously, your openness about Talia's diagnosis has come with her blessing. What has that journey been like as a family going from not knowing to now using this platform to be so open about it?
KBJ: Well, I am so grateful for her willingness to let me share this part of our story and our family's journey because it is so much of where we've been, and who we've become, who I've become, as a parent and as a human being. And so it would have been odd at least to write the story and not include this very, very important part of our background.
I would say we struggled with the balance. You talked about the balance before, but this is sort of an added layer, I think, because what was happening for us, as I describe in the book, is not just that we were finding ways to drop off and pick up our kids, but that at least once or twice a week, we were getting calls from the school saying, you know, "Talia was having problems in a class, or this incident happened today," and not really understanding or knowing what the best educational environment was for her. What could we do to support her? She ended up being diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum, but it took many years to reach that point, and we had a few diagnoses that told us that she was not autistic. So, we were really in a quandary because I kept thinking, "Well, if I could just find the right combination of supports, everything would be fine." So, I guess the not knowing was very, very challenging.
Also, and I talk about this, her being so different than either me or my husband, and the way that manifested itself was I had a model for parenting that came from my parents parenting me. They decided when I was very young—my parents were both public school teachers when I was born, and then my dad went back to law school—but they were so focused on my education and my achievement and giving me opportunities that they did not have growing up. They grew up in the segregated South, and were not allowed to participate a lot in various activities. They wanted me to do all of these things. And their way of parenting was to say, "You can do it. You can do it. Don't give into the doubts.” I would whine like other children and my mother would say, "Ketanji, has this been done before? Have you seen somebody do this thing?" And I would say, "Yes, Mom." She would say, "Well, then you can do it too. Just keep going." And so when I tried that same kind of parenting with Talia, my oldest daughter, it didn't work. It didn't work because she really at times couldn't do what we were expecting of her. That was really all I knew how to say or what to say in certain circumstances. So, shifting my expectations and my way of engaging with her was also a very challenging discovery road.
And then, finally, I would say that when she was ultimately diagnosed, it was a comfort in a way, because we had gone through periods of uncertainty, and then we finally sort of understood that all the struggle actually had a source, and that there was a reason why she was behaving in the way she was when she was younger and responding to how we were parenting in a certain way. And that was a relief, but it also was a wonderful opportunity for us to let go of our expectations and what we had brought to our relationship with her and to just let her be who she is.
KO: Yeah. I relate so much to that relief, right? Just all of a sudden, now at least, okay, you have a name, you can make a plan. And I think for that personality type, certainly that go-getter of liking the certainty of a plan, I think that definitely helps in that moment of that parenting journey.
You talk about your experience as one of the only Black students at your high school in Miami and share that you felt more at peace when you went to college and found a community of Black friends. Steven Rosenthal was someone we got to know in the book, a friend from the debate team in high school who also went to college and law school with you and remains a friend today. One day you brought Steven to a Black Student's Association event, and afterwards he shared that as the only white person there, he'd never been so aware of his race, and he apologized for not thinking about how you must have felt in high school. As you continued on your career and became a judge and continued to achieve more and more rarefied air, you were once again in a position where not as many Black people have had the opportunity to be. And, of course, you are the first Black woman ever to sit on the Supreme Court. What do you want people to most understand about that journey, and what responsibility have you felt as the first Black woman in your position?
KBJ: Well, in the book, I just try to relate the experience, what it felt like for me. I talk at one point about a phenomenon that W.E.B. Du Bois, who was a Black scholar back in the day, discusses in some of his work, which is called “double consciousness.” And it is the idea that accomplished Black people are ever mindful of how other people are perceiving them in circumstances. So, it's sort of like you have this twoness in your way of walking through the world, and it can be very exhausting, which is the way that I experienced it in the book.
"It's hard to put into words what it is like to be a working parent who has struggled at times with the competing demands of the responsibilities that you have, and wondering whether you've given enough to your kids and to your family."
But I also went through high school, went through circumstances in which I was one of a handful of Black people, understanding that people were going to, by and large, have their views of what African Americans were capable of or could do influenced by how I performed and how I behaved. And so in some sense, it was motivational for me. I used to think about the fact that this might be, this speech that I'm giving, might be the only time they ever saw a Black person give a speech. So, I wanted it to be the best speech possible because I was influencing people's perceptions of African Americans, especially in a society—and again, I think I can't stress enough how my parents’ circumstances were so different from mine and the impact that that had on my journey. I was born within five or six years of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act and the sort of end of Jim Crow segregation. So, I was the first generation to receive the benefits of Martin Luther King's dream, if you want to think of it in that way. And there was a lot of interest in making sure that Black people of my generation were successful as an embodiment of our ancestors' dreams. There was a lot of pressure in some sense, but it was also, for me personally, motivational to really be that kind of standard-bearer in this new environment.
I think being the first Black woman is obviously a big honor. I'm very grateful for the opportunity to serve the American people in this way, and I'm doing my best. At one of the investiture speeches I gave, I said, "I have a seat at the table now and I'm ready to work." And the book, I think, really details all of the stages of my life that I believe has prepared me for this moment. So, I'm feeling comfortable in the sense that I know that I'm doing the work, can do the work, and am grateful for having the chance to do the work. But I am mindful that people are watching, and they are interested and they are trying to see what will happen to have a Black woman on the court. And of course the goal is eventually to have that not matter. But for now, whenever you see someone moving into a new set of circumstances, I think there are a lot of people who are excited and interested in what you're going to do.
KO: I loved that line from that speech, and then after you were confirmed to the Supreme Court, your line, “In one generation, my family has gone from segregation to the Supreme Court.” That is just one of the most powerful moments in our nation's history, honestly. And it will be in the history books, absolutely.
KBJ: Thank you.
KO: One thing that I've always been fascinated by is the responsibility to respect the letter of the law, irrespective of one's own ideological viewpoints. The Supreme Court is, of course, nonpartisan, but we all have a moral code that guides our decision-making and influences our determinations of what is just. Can you talk about this intersection of your personal beliefs and your role as a Supreme Court justice, and if and where your ideologies are allowed to come into play?
KBJ: Well, one of the things that you learn as a lawyer and that you practice, especially kind of early in your development if you were to go on to be a judge, is the ability to separate out your personal views from what the law requires, and what you have to do and your duty in interpreting the law. It's something that they train you to do in law school. I was a law clerk for three different federal judges and got wonderful role models for this kind of judicial integrity. It is the recognition that you have a duty to rule without fear or favor. And it means that no matter what your political persuasion is, what you're looking at is the arguments that are being made, regardless of who is making them, what the precedents and the legal statutes require in the circumstance. And then your obligation to rule consistent with what the law requires, even if it means that someone who you might empathize with or you might have feelings for or whatever, doesn't win the case. That's the way it goes. That's what judges do in order to be impartial. And that's the core duty of a judge, and so you practice that.
Now, that's not to say that experience is irrelevant, or your understanding of how the world actually works or the things that you've done in your life are irrelevant, because they're not. I mean, if you think about what judges do is we are resolving disputes between people who are actually bringing to the court different versions of what happened, of what should be going on in this situation as a matter of law, what the law says under these circumstances. So, you have to understand the circumstances in order to be able to rule. And your understanding, in some ways, it intersects with the way that you have come up in the world, or the way that you have interacted with the world. If you're going to be the one to decide who's got the better of the argument about this set of facts or that set of facts, you think, "Okay, well what do I know about these circumstances?" And so you're always, in a sense, drawing on experience, but you're not ruling on the basis of your personal affinity or affiliations when you are making your decisions. It's hard to describe, but it is what we do in the law, and it is certainly the core responsibility of a judge.
KO: I loved getting to listen to you narrate your memoir. It was such a treat because you just infused the reading with your joy and your energy and your enthusiasm, and you even sing at certain moments, which was such a treat. I know you have a full-time job, but I'm sure, as you know from your high school speech days, there is always a career in performance for you, should you want it [laughs].
KBJ: [Laughs] Thank you.
KO: What was that experience like for you going into the studio and reading your memoir?
KBJ: It was actually really fun. I had just finished the term, and literally I think I had four or five days off, and then I went right into the studio, so I was exhausted from just my day job. But boy, it was really wonderful to get a chance to sit there, to go through the whole book that had taken two years to write, to try to bring the stories and the scenes to life. I remember thinking in my head, "Okay, should I try to do an accent here? Okay, no, I'm not gonna. Or should I sing this verse that I talk about in the book? Okay, fine, I'll sing it.” It was sort of like we were making these on-the-fly decisions about how to portray it.
But as you know, because I did speech writing and delivery as my primary event early on, and I love audio. I love audio. I listen to almost everything through audiobooks, Audible, et cetera. I really relished this opportunity to bring to the readers of the book my version of what it sounds like. It was really fun.
KO: Yeah, I felt that fun. I felt that joy. I think this is, in my opinion, the best way to experience the book. And in part, too, because we get to hear some live recordings, including from your speech at the Library of Congress after you were confirmed to the Supreme Court, and a bit from Senator Cory Booker from his moving speech from your confirmation hearings. But we also get to hear from your daughters. We hear a recording of Talia singing from her high school graduation, and we also hear from your daughter, Leila, once in a moving passage about her relationship with her sister, and again in her now infamous letter to President Obama recommending you to the Supreme Court.
KBJ: Yes [laughs].
KO: What has it meant to you having them be involved with the audiobook?
KBJ: Oh, my goodness. It was tremendous to have them participate. I did ask them would they do this, and they both thought about it, to allow me to use Talia's graduation recording, and to have Leila, actually, who went into the studio to record for this. It's another example of the support, I think, and the love that they have shown to me in this process of not only writing the book, but becoming a justice. It's hard to put into words what it is like to be a working parent who has struggled at times with the competing demands of the responsibilities that you have, and wondering whether you've given enough to your kids and to your family. And then to have them as adults turn around and show their love and support in this way has just been extraordinary. So, I'm a little overwhelmed even thinking about it.
KO: Yeah, that was a moment that brought tears to my eyes as well. In one speech you gave where you were thanking them, and I'm going to butcher this, but you say essentially, “I didn't always get it right, but I hope you know that I did my best,” and I felt that so much. And your relationship, as you've shared it in this book, has been so open, and seeing their support of you has just been wonderful.
In a supplemental essay for your Harvard application, you wrote that you wanted to attend the school to help you achieve your dream of becoming the first Black female Supreme Court justice to appear on a Broadway stage.
KBJ: Yes.
KO: So, we are halfway there! How are we getting you to Broadway?
KBJ: Many people have asked since I revealed that that was my dream [laughs].
KO: You know, we do have a wonderful Audible theater program.
KBJ: Oh!
KO: We have shows at the Minetta Lane Theatre, so I'm thinking maybe with your love of oration…
KBJ: Fabulous [laughs].
KO: Well, thank you so much for your time today, Justice Jackson. It has just been an honor speaking with you.
KBJ: Thank you so much. This was really fun. I appreciate it.
KO: Listeners, you can get Lovely One by Ketanji Brown Jackson right now on Audible.
