Matt James brings positivity and perspective to ‘First Impressions’

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Katie O'Connor: Hi, listeners. I'm Audible Editor Katie O’Connor and today I'm excited to be speaking with entrepreneur and former Bachelor Matt James about his new memoir, First Impressions. Welcome, Matt.

Matt James: Thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here.

KO: I'm excited for our chat. So, you say in the audiobook that this is not the typical Bachelor memoir, and it is not. You could have told a very different story that would've been fodder for the gossip sites, filled with behind-the-scenes tidbits and plenty of drama. But, instead, you chose to tell the story of how you became the man that you are today, the experiences that shaped you, the things that drive you, because I know that you said this was a side that producers on the show chose not to share. So talk to me about that choice: why you wanted to tell your story this way.

MJ: I think there's always going to be someone who can dish out tea, someone who can talk about what happens behind the scenes, someone who can talk about The Bachelor experience and, to be completely honest with you, Katie, I'm exhausted from The Bachelor. I'm burnt out.

It's a shame that something that is such a pivotal moment in history, one of the biggest moments in my life, turned into something weaponized. What the viewers really lost was an opportunity for us to embrace change and have conversations and dialogue that push people forward and uplift people, but we choose to focus on things that are unbecoming and lackluster and just not interesting.

Where we're at right now as a country, we could have capitalized on me being the first Black Bachelor, which seems like what they were trying to do in the timeliness of that announcement. So it's like, if you're ready all of a sudden to embrace certain things that the franchise hasn't previously, then you should embrace it all the way. And I think there are times that they shied away from that.

"I took this opportunity to share and provide context to stories that I briefly touched on that seemed to resonate with a lot of people."

I'm coming off very negative and very gloomy. I enjoyed it. I had a blast. I came out of it with a relationship. A lot of people have my experience and they want to talk about it. I have no more energy to talk about that stuff. It sucked the life out of Rachael and my relationship for a time. And it's been rejuvenated because we live our life outside of that bubble. So, that's why I chose not to talk about it.

I took this opportunity to share and provide context to stories that I briefly touched on that seemed to resonate with a lot of people. And when I briefly touched on things during the show, I had people reaching out all the time, like, "I can't believe you said that, thank you for sharing that. I can't believe you prayed. I can't believe that you had that conversation with your dad." And I was trying to keep it 100. I was just trying to be real. That was my approach to the entire experience, and I think it resonated with people because they're not dumb. Like, you could tell when things are overproduced. You can tell when things aren't authentic. And I think it turns people off because you're acting like they don't know what's going on, when most people do know. My experience will be replicated by somebody down the line, they'll go through and tell all the dirty secrets. I'm not interested in that.

I'm trying to retake control from that as well as—seeing how many people resonated with my story and what I'd been through—providing that additional context so that as they're going through the things that I've been through in life, they're like, "Man, no, I remember Matt went through this. Matt lost a job, Matt lived in a dump and didn't make any money. This is par for the course, I'll be fine if I just keep working hard and doing X, Y, Z." That is the type of context that I wanted to provide in the story to empower people and give them something that was relatable.

KO: Yeah. You did mention the fact that you were the first Black bachelor and it was this fortuitous timing with the announcement of it. When you said yes to The Bachelor, you didn't know that you were set to be the first Black bachelor and it really caused you to doubt your decision in that moment. Obviously, you went for it. But in your memoir, you say that one of the reasons was that millions would get to watch you, a Black man, be principled and vulnerable for weeks on end.

And there is this pressure that Black people experience. If you are to be the first in something, you have to be the best. One, to even get there, but then two, to make sure that others have the opportunity to get there as well, after you. Michelle Obama touches on it in Becoming. We just saw this play out on the national stage with the nomination of Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson to the Supreme Court. Can you expand on the pressure that you felt in this position as the first Black bachelor in the franchise's history?

MJ: I mean the way you teed that up perfectly.... The expectation wasn't on a Peter or wasn't on your run of the mill Bachelorette, like it was on Rachel Lindsay. I feel like when you're the first like Rachel was, it's like people are waiting for you to do things to point at why there shouldn't be another and why there hasn't been one before.

Fortunately for me, I didn't really think much into that during the actual filming, because you can only fake something for so long. And you see that during the show. People act a certain way and then they're found out because it's exhausting to put on, and after a while you let your guard down and you're like, "Whoa, that's who you really are?" I'm just so blessed and thankful to have experienced everything I had up until this point in my life, from trials and tribulations with my family, to being raised by such a strong, independent woman like my mother, to the experiences that my brother's gone through. All those things molded me into this person.

So when I’m making these decisions I’m making them as the man that I am, and not because I’m Black or white. I was very conscious of the decisions that I was making because of the fact that this was the first time that a lot of white people were hanging out with a Black person as much as they were throughout the show. And I was not ignorant to the fact that preconceived notions were going to be formed based off of the way that I carried myself and the interactions that I had on that show.

If you don't hang out with a bunch of Black people, if you don't hang out with any other race that doesn't look like you, whatever you're consuming is going to be your thought on them. Like, "Oh, you know, all Black people wear turtlenecks. Matt wore turtlenecks all the time. Oh, well, Black people kiss with their eyes open." It's like, "No, this is my unique experience. We're all different people." As long as I was doing everything that I could to be a good person, I worried very little about what people thought about my decision making.

KO: I think people that were watching the show honestly could really see that. I commend you for doing that. So, let's take it back more to your earlier days. In First Impressions, listeners get to see your precocious nature as a child, sitting with the parents of your friends and peppering them with questions about how they achieved their success. And you attribute a lot of your successes in life to your athletic endeavors. You also had great coaches along the way that guided you, plus your drive and your competitive nature helping you to succeed. What is the best piece of advice that you would give to young listeners who are now looking to you as an example of success?

MJ: It's such hard advice to follow as a young person, because we’re so influenced by our peers and our surroundings. It's okay to be different and do things that you want to do and be different. The older you get, the more praise those people get. If more of us were as comfortable as we are when we’re older making that direct decision to be different, I think that they wouldn't have to wait as long to come into being their own person.

"The things that make you human and relatable are the things that I tried to hide for so long. And the more I've shared, the more it's brought people in."

I could have gotten there a lot earlier in my younger years if I wouldn't have worried about even honestly what your friends thought about you, because a lot of people project their own fears onto you. So, just being your own person. That would be my advice to a younger person.

You have to do more; you have to put yourself out there to achieve the things that you're trying to accomplish. I think people are paralyzed by the idea of change and doing something that could result in failure. But if you're not failing, then you're not growing because you're not uncomfortable. So, like, putting yourself in situations to honestly fail. Worry less about other people and take more risks.

KO: And we get to see in the memoir, too, that you were not afraid to take risks as you jumped cities, at one point going from Pittsburgh to New York.

So, fans got to meet both of your parents and your brother on the show, and in the memoir we learn more about your remarkably close relationship with your mom and your brother. Obviously, they've had to weather fame alongside you in the years since, but I'm curious how they feel about your memoir being out in the world?

MJ: You're talking about two of my biggest supporters, so there's things that I'm sure make both of them uncomfortable. From my mom's standpoint, just hearing things about her dad and my childhood, things that she can't control. And then the same thing with John, because with how vulnerable and open I was, he was as well, just with sharing his story and allowing me to be open and honest about his life. They were happy for me. And they've seen the personal growth that's happened for me being able to take that weight off of my shoulders and share [my story] with people.

A lot of those things aren't things I would've even shared with someone I was dating. You know, when you're initially dating someone, you're leading off with your most important or impressive thing. Someone who is an architect might talk about the work they've done, and someone who's a painter might show you their painting. Someone who’s a banker might talk about how successful they are as a banker. So the things that make you human and relatable are the things that I tried to hide for so long. And the more I've shared, the more it's brought people in.

KO: You just alluded to how there are parts of your memoir that are maybe hard for your mom, because of the relationship that you had with your grandfather, which you discuss in First Impressions. That relationship really struck me, because here's this man who is supposed to innately love you, but because of his own prejudices that he grew up with and his distaste for your father, he others you, right? He doesn't show that typical grandfatherly affection that you would expect from somebody in that position. And yet you chose to forgive him for his actions. Can you talk about where that forgiving nature comes from?

MJ: It only comes from one place. It comes from my relationship with God. As a Christian, I believe that Jesus has paid the ultimate price for our sins, and his forgiveness is what that faith is based on. So having that belief, it's like, "How can I not show forgiveness to people when I've been shown this forgiveness?" And it's something that I have to remind myself of constantly because I'm constantly harboring anger toward people just because I'm human. And it's still very difficult, because we're human, but it's made it a lot easier knowing that I have to ask for forgiveness daily. So that's the only place it comes from, because if it came from anywhere else, then I wouldn't be able to do it.

KO: I commend you. It's something that a lot of people wouldn't have been able to draw on. So, when your mom came on the show, she really seemed to rock you with the conversation that you two had and you with her revelations to you. She essentially said that there's more to relationships than love. And love might not be enough to sustain a relationship. Do you feel like her words changed your approach to how you wanted to proceed with Rachael at all?

MJ: I think that what it brought was a balanced approach to what I was trying to accomplish. And when you don't have balance, then you tend to lean one way or the other, right? Obviously, you go on the show to find someone that you're compatible with and get engaged. And that's no secret. Everyone knows that, even if you've never watched the show. And I think that you have to be open to that, and being open to that doesn't mean that it necessarily has to happen. And when that narrative's being pushed and pushed and pushed and you think it's the only way forward, and then you have some outside third party come in and be like, "Hey, you know what? You probably do or you could love this person, but what else is there?" And no one's talking like that because that's driving you away from the goal. That's probably why you can't have your phone during the show, you can't have conversations with your friends and family because they give you perspective that you lack during that experience.

"I'm sure a lot of people were bummed and upset that there wasn't an engagement, but guess what? We're working toward that, and we're in a relationship."

It's paid off because Rachael and I are in a great relationship and people who force themselves to do something that they should have waited to do, they're not together anymore. It's not sexy, but at the end of the day, it's our life and it's what's best for us. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people were bummed and upset that there wasn't an engagement, but guess what? We're working toward that, and we're in a relationship. So yeah, I was very happy to have that advice at that time, and I wouldn't say it swayed my decision. It just reminded me that this path is not linear, there are multiple forks in this road that you could take.

KO: Now it gets to be just for the two of you someday and not for the rest of America, right? Which, to your point, does make it really special. And I love that you are framing it as balance. Relationships need all sorts of elements in them to be successful. And following your season, you and your final choice, Rachael Kirkconnell, you definitely had some controversies that you had to face together. But again, to your point, you're a successful Bachelor couple. There are plenty of other Bachelor and Bachelorette couples that have not made it. So, what have you learned is the key to a successful relationship?

MJ: It's funny, like the bar is so low. People ask me that like I’m some guru on good relationships. Me and Rachael still have our issues. There are probably things that I do a lot of times that she's not happy about, but we work toward them together and we have conversations about them. Rachael's role in this relationship is her strong communication skills and not being passive-aggressive like I am. Something could be bothering me and I might not talk about it just because that's never how I've been in a relationship. But if something's bothering Rachael, we're talking about it and it's being addressed. Communication's huge for us and something I'm working on. I'm not the best, but I have gotten better.

KO: Best you can do, communication, right? And being honest when you forget to pick up the milk.

MJ: Yep.

KO: I have one more question for you about the show, specifically. You don't mention Chris Harrison by name in your memoir, but I did want to touch on him with you. For listeners who might not be aware, Chris was the host of The Bachelor and Bachelorette franchises for nearly 20 years. In the wake of your season airing, he gave a foot-in-mouth interview about photos that had surfaced featuring your final choice, Rachael, at an Antebellum party. And, ultimately, Chris was fired from the shows. I have two questions: One, are you still in contact with Chris or have you spoken to him since he was let go? And two, I'm curious what you make of their new choice for host, hiring yet another white man now to replace him across both franchises?

MJ: I still follow Chris. I haven't talked to him on the phone or texted him, but we formed a relationship during filming and we talked about his kids. We talked about, you know, things that friends talk about. So it was hard to have all that happen to someone that you see as a friend, but it is what it is. You've got to address those things so that, you know, moving forward there's precedent set. There was no direct reason for not mentioning him by name in the book, just because my goal in this is not to drag the franchise and not to drag him.

And then in terms of replacing him, I have no idea what went into that search. You know, for a while I thought it was going to be Acho, which would have been sick. Like, I love Emmanuel. But Jesse is doing a good job and I'm sure whoever they put in there would have done a great job. But again, you have an opportunity to do something, and I liked when Kaitlyn and Tayshia hosted it, they did a good job.

And I don't know if the people spoke or the franchise spoke. There are a lot of different ways to get that fix for reality dating now. So, you know, with the choices that you make come the choices of the viewers as well. And as time goes on, the people will decide how they value that type of decision.

KO: Awesome. Your sense of humor really flows throughout your performance of this memoir. I laughed so many times. Can you tell us what it was like narrating First Impressions?

MJ: It was fun to relive a lot of those moments. I tapped back in so vividly to those interactions that I had brushed over, and it was fun to relish in those. I've had a crazy life, by definition of what most people do. It's fun to share that stuff with people because I'm sure that a lot of people can relate to those things, from a crazy roommate situation to first-apartment stories to getting to do fun and interesting things. So, collecting all those stories and putting it in a way that was digestible for people was the most fun part of this entire experience of writing.

KO: You mentioned that before your successes, you took a lot of road trips. You were in your car driving long distances to visit some of your friends. So I'm curious if you are an audiobook listener and if so, can you share with us what some of your favorite listens are?

MJ: The road trips were something I looked forward to most because when I was in the car by myself, it was just a chance for me to reflect on where I was and project where I wanted to go. And a time to catch up with people. A lot of that time was spent on the phone, a lot of that time was spent listening to true crime podcasts. But when those weren't at the top of the agenda, I like reading things that—some people read to educate themselves, like Real Estate Investing for Dummies or Cryptocurrency Investing for Dummies. I love food, so anytime I would get a book, it would be like the Chick-fil-A story or, you know, the McDonald's book that was made into a movie. Those were my favorite listens, specifically the McDonald's book and the In-N-Out story. This was at the very creation of ABC Food Tour. I'm, like, fully entrenched in the food space, listening to all these founder stories. [I didn't listen to a lot of fiction.] When I'm listening to someone or hearing a story, I like that element of realness and knowing that someone actually experienced it.

KO: You mentioned how much you love food, and I definitely got hungry a lot while listening to First Impressions. And you just mentioned your nonprofit, ABC Food Tours, which was started to show kids from a local public school in New York different restaurants and flavors in their neighborhood that they hadn't been exposed to. And it has since evolved to help them with clean eating and healthy living and whatnot. But I've got a really basic question for you: What food would you pair with First Impressions?

MJ: That's a great question. I've never been asked that. What food would I pair with First Impressions? I've got my answer. And it's not a food, it's a meal. And it's actually a meal that I discuss in the book. If you guess the meal, then you get a gold star.

KO: Is it the chicken and biscuits?

MJ: That was a great guess. There's a restaurant in Pittsburgh called William Penn Tavern.

KO: Oh, the wings. I should have guessed the wings.

MJ: The spicy ranch, and they're not spicy. Take away the word spicy and just add flavorful. Flavorful ranch wings that are fried crispy, but not crunchy. And then this perfect sauce after they take it out of the grill. Then they drain the sauce and they drizzle this very fine sharp Parmesan cheese over the wings.

And then they put those in a basket and then they take these real potato fries, not the cheap stuff, not the crinkles, not the wedges, like real potatoes going through a machine. They fry 'em, they salt 'em, and you have the perfect fry with the perfect wing and your dipping sauces. So like, as you're reading and you're eating, you don't want to put either one down. And then before you know it, the book is going to be on the last page and your fries and your wings are gone. And you're not satisfied because it was so good that it went by so quickly, and then you have to read it again and you have to order more wings.

KO: That was the perfect answer. I love it. And now I'm starving all over again. So, you mentioned in your epilogue a little bit about what you're working on now, your various passions and how they've evolved. Can you share with our listeners what's next for you?

MJ: Yeah, I was actually talking to Rachael about this, when you're on the go as much as we are, you can't really focus in on the things that you're passionate about and you want to push forward. For me, a lot of that stuff is crypto. I'm just fascinated by the space and all things NFTs. It's like the Wild Wild West right now.

So I'm just trying to be an early adapter and be someone who is entrenched in the space so that, you know, as that broader adaption takes place, you're someone who's a thought leader. It's a buzzword and people are probably tired of hearing about it, but I love it. And then all things ABC Food Tours and getting them involved in those things. My personal projects become, ABC projects. I love hydroponic farming, and I'm fascinated by the technology and where we're going as a planet and farming things efficiently.

We have those conversations now with our students, same thing with crypto and being digitally native, because those two things aren't things that you're learning in school. There's so much more out there that people in their community typically aren't pursuing. So, when we bridge that gap for them, it opens up another portal in their brain and it has them thinking and activated on interests that lie outside of their neighborhood.

KO: I love that. And just fueling their curiosity, right? Their future jobs might not exist yet, which is really crazy. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

MJ: Of course. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you having interest in wanting to speak.

KO: Listeners, you can get First Impressions right now on Audible.