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Melissa Bendixen: Hello, listeners. This is Melissa Bendixen, an editor here at Audible. I have beloved narrator and now debut novelist Natalie Naudus on the line with me to discuss her sapphic YA romance that's heavily inspired by her own life, called . Hi, Natalie. Welcome.
Natalie Naudus: Thanks for having me.
MB: Of course. So, you've narrated so many amazing novels, including , , , literally hundreds more. How does it feel to be coming out with your first novel that you've written as well as narrated?
NN: It's honestly pretty terrifying. I spend so much time reading other people's words, but these are my own words. And it feels completely different. I'm always hoping that people enjoy my performance but know that the content is somebody else's, you know? I'm the waiter serving the food as best I can. But with this, I made the food, I cooked the food. So, I'm nervous. I'm anxious. I hope people read it and I hope people enjoy it or feel seen from reading it.
MB: Well, I'm here to tell you that you should not feel nervous, and you did an amazing job and I really enjoyed that meal.
NN: Thank you. Thank you so much, I'm so glad.
MB: So, I know Gay the Pray Away is in a way part memoir, with you revealing in your author's note at the beginning of the novel that you yourself grew up in a religious cult.
NN: Yes.
MB: Can you tell us just how much of main character Valerie's experiences reflect your own, and kind of what your childhood was like?
NN: I would say that the setting and the cult are very much lifted straight from my childhood. I was raised in IBLP and their homeschooling program was called ATI, which is the same cult that the Duggars were in, the famous reality TV family. So, the setting is very much exactly lifted from my childhood. The plot is not at all what happened to me. I did not deconstruct my childhood or realize that I'm bisexual and queer until I was an adult. And it was actually, and I said this in my author's note, partly through books and recording sapphic books and realizing that I was obsessed with these books and I wanted more and more of them. Why am I obsessed with them? Maybe I'm queer too. The books played such a huge part of that for me, and it's kind of partly my love letter to queer fiction and the power of books and religious deconstruction, set in my childhood.
MB: Yeah, I'm going to ask you more about that in a second. I wanted to kind of get into how did it feel to write it down? What was it like reflecting back on your story and putting it into a novel?
NN: It was super emotional. I feel like it was partly me processing a lot of my childhood and being able to reach back and say to my younger self, "You were fine. You were perfect the way that you were, you didn't need to change. You weren't as bad as people were telling you that you were." A way to kind of hug my inner child and tell her that she was actually good and not a sinful piece of crap.
MB: Oh, I feel for the younger you.
NN: Yeah.
MB: What was it that made it a YA novel for you?
NN: That's a good question. I thought about setting it older. You know, I mentioned that I realized I was queer through sapphic books. And I also realized that I grew up in a cult through my group of narrator friends. I was talking to my narrator friends Kelsey Navarro and Chelsea Stephens, and we have this group chat and we were talking about childhoods. And I was like, "Yeah, you know how like we all burned CDs and satanic toys in our youth?" And they were like, "What?" Because we all grew up going to church. And they were like, "That's not normal, Natalie." And I was like, "Sure it is, we all did that, right?" And they were like, "Nooo." And I Googled the program that I grew up in, and there were all these articles about the cult and the leader of it and websites full of people sharing their trauma stories. And I was like, "Oh, my God, I grew up in a cult and I didn't realize it until I was in my 30s."
And I got really angry for a bit, and I started kind of rage-writing a memoir. And it was too messy to decide real people and who I wanted to call out, and it was just too hard. And it was also, I kept getting stuck on like, "Well, am I portraying this accurately? Is this really what happened?" There's so many perspectives on any situation that putting it into fiction gave me the freedom to just write. Instead of trying to analyze myself to death, I could just say, "Hey, these fictional characters go through something different than me, but it's the same setting," and I can really put my thoughts and my feelings out easier with the freedom of fiction. But the setting and the truth and the feelings are very much real and from my heart.
MB: So it sounds like writing is what helped you process what happened.
NN: I really processed a lot through writing. I thought about it a lot and I talked to a lot of people who grew up in really high-control religion. But I do feel like writing it all down helped me clarify a lot of it really well. And I also feel like parenting has helped me deconstruct my childhood a lot too. To look at the stuff that I went through and I thought, "Oh, I probably deserved that" or "That's just how you raise children." As a parent to be like, "Oh, my God, I would never do that to my child." Maybe baby Natalie didn't deserve that too. I really tried to put that into the book, to tell Valerie and other kids who grew up really religious and who were closeted queer that you are good, and you're fine the way that you are. And the hurt going on around you, you're not the source of that. It's the problem of your environment. It's not your fault. You are good the way you are.
MB: Yeah. Well, as you were saying before, you state also in your author's note that being drawn to and narrating queer stories was the catalyst that made you ultimately come out to yourself, and now it sounds like your narration career, it’s done so much. It also made you realize your childhood too. In Gay the Pray Away, our main character, Valerie, has a love of reading that leads her to begin her questioning journey, with specifically by Casey McQuiston, which you narrated. And then I love that meta moment when Riley is like, "Oh, yeah, I listened to the audio. It's okay." [laughs] That was so funny. But what was it about your experience working on One Last Stop that made you want to place it front and center for Valerie?
NN: A couple things. One Last Stop was actually a book that made me come out come out, because I had been narrating a lot of indie queer fiction. And I really wanted to narrate One Last Stop when I saw it announced, and that was the first time that I emailed someone, and I emailed a producer at Macmillan and said, "Hey, I am bisexual. I'm Asian American. Can I please audition? I think this book might be perfect for me." But that I came out because I wanted to narrate that book. So that was really special for me.
And I also just love that book so much and feel like it shows a joy in being queer and being yourself that I have found myself, that leaving the heaviness and the judgmentalness of religion and going towards queerness has made me so much happier. Which is the opposite of what I was told would happen when I grew up. I was told that I would be so lost and sad and those people are so unhappy. And it's not true. And so I really love the joy in One Last Stop.
But it's like more of a homage to queer fiction in general, and even just books and libraries. I thought a lot about the people that I grew up with, and some of them have left the religion and the cult, and some of them have stayed very much in it. And I think that a big thing that made me ready to leave was that I was always a voracious reader, I was always checking out stacks of books from the library. That part is absolutely accurate. And I was able, because I read so much, to read books that my parents didn't approve of because they just gave up because the stacks were too high. As long as the cover looked good, I could read it. And I think that kept my mind flexible and open and ready to look at the world in a different way.
MB: Yeah. I love that moment in the beginning when the librarian helps Valerie out with sneaking out One Last Stop from the library. And the librarian, he's like a reoccurring but silent figure throughout that's kind of a reminder that Valerie's not alone.
NN: Yeah. I feel like a lot of us have people like that in our lives who have gently helped us in ways that maybe they don't even know the impact of. That helped us and showed us love when we really needed it.
MB: Yeah, it's like a nice example of just doing a small good deed, and that's like what most of us can do. And it really can be life-changing.
NN: Absolutely.
“But I felt very strongly from the beginning that I didn't want to embellish the trauma. I feel like it's very real the way that it is, and those of us who have lived it know that it's plenty of trauma.”
MB: I'm curious what other books might have served as inspiration within this novel. Were there any particular that you narrated that you were thinking about when writing this one?
NN: You know, it's funny, I wrote this whole book and then I recorded by Alyson Derrick, and it was very similar. It's about a small town, not as religious but still homophobic community, and coming out. I recorded that when I had already written this, and I was like, "Oh, my gosh, it's like parallel stories," you know? I don't think I've read a book quite like mine, because there's like a lot of heavy, dark trauma that I tried to approach in an upbeat, hopeful way. And some early feedback that I had gotten on my book was, "This probably needs like more drama, more conflict, more darkness. Because if it's going to be like a trauma thriller, we need more trauma." But I felt very strongly from the beginning that I didn't want to embellish the trauma. I feel like it's very real the way that it is, and those of us who have lived it know that it's plenty of trauma. We don't have to add more conflict to make this more exciting. I just wanted it to be very real and from the heart.
MB: It's like what you were saying in your author's note was, "This book contains depictions of religious trauma, Christian nationalism, child abuse, and homophobia, but I've tried very hard, in this book as in life, to move through the darkness toward healing and love." And you could feel that.
NN: I'm so glad.
MB: Yeah. So, on to the narration. How was it? How was it narrating Gay the Pray Away?
NN: It was easy and hard at the same time. It was easy because it's my words so I knew where the sentences were going, and my own cadence and pacing works with my own voice. Like, I had it planned. But it was really hard because it was very emotional, and I feel like I relived a lot of trauma writing this and recording it. So I definitely had to take a lot of breaks and cry and pet cats. But I really put my heart into it, and I hope that comes through.
MB: How do you think being a narrator influenced your telling and writing of the story?
NN: I think that I initially wrote it pretty sparse on the prose, and then the dialogue as chatty, as like an audio drama. And then over revisions and then I worked with an agent for a while, it was making it more of a novel and filling out the prose and kind of cleaning up some of the dialogue to make it more book-y. But I do think that I approached it with a very strong sense of character. I feel like I'm known for doing really clear characterizations, and I felt like that helped me write it. I had a strong sense of who each of these people were, what they would sound like, how they would talk, and it feels like dialogue is quite easy for me to write, because that's how I think as an actor, is mostly in the dialogue.
MB: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm wondering if you learned any lessons as a narrator that translated into the novel writing. You've narrated so many books, and read so many books, you have like this baseline of knowledge before you even started your first one.
NN: Yeah. I feel like because I've narrated so much, I tend to write kind of sparse because I feel like a lot of stuff has been said already. So, I want to kind of get to what I have to say that's different. I also learned that writing is really hard [laughs]. It's just so hard. It takes a lot of energy, and honestly, to me it is definitely more work than recording. Recording is acting and is hard and it takes so much energy, but the emotional and mental drain from writing was really intense. And I couldn't do it full-time, for sure.
MB: Yeah, I'm sure it also made a difference that you were delving into your difficult childhood too.
NN: For sure, yes.
“I'm just so thankful and I feel like the luckiest person alive to get to record the best freakin' books being written.”
MB: So, you have a strong online presence. You've attributed your work online and on social media as one of the reasons why you've garnered so much success in your narration career. Can you tell us a little bit about the community that you've found and what it's like being open to the online world as a narrator?
NN: Yeah. Following queer authors who were especially specifically bisexual and writing queer fiction and married to men really gave me a lot of confidence to come out. Because I'm married to a man, and there is that huge feeling of, do I belong? Am I queer enough? And so being a part of online community has really helped me feel valid and seen. I decided to come out online, like publicly, as a queer narrator because I wanted people to know that the person telling them these stories is a part of the queer community. I wanted people to feel, I don't know, feel or see or hear a little extra love and passion for this work. Because it did help me so much to see other people who were out. That encouraged me in my own understanding of myself.
Being part of online communities has helped my career so much for sure. Being able to passionately talk about the books that I love, that I'm lucky enough to record, helps me get more of the kind of books that I want. It gets authors to request me, and when I get requested, most of the time it's like, "Yes, this is exactly the kind of thing that I want to record. Thank you so much for asking for me." It's really helped me direct my career path to the kinds of stuff that I'm passionate about, and I'm just so thankful and I feel like the luckiest person alive to get to record the best freakin' books being written. And they're books that I want to read, and I'm so lucky and happy and passionate about these books, and I just feel so lucky.
MB: Yeah. And your story to becoming a narrator, it's so inspiring. You have a master’s degree in vocal performance. And you were a music teacher and an opera singer for a time, when it occurred to you that audiobook narration could be a career for you that would be both more flexible and more lucrative than your current jobs. And you were also a really big audiobook listener at the time.
NN: Absolutely.
MB: I'm sure you get asked this all the time, but what would be your advice for aspiring audiobook narrators? What do you want to tell someone that might be looking to get into it?
NN: I think that acting skills are the biggest thing. A lot of people think, "Oh, I love books" or "I have a great voice." But it's really about your skill with using it. So I would say acting skill is first. And the next is to be able to find the things that you're passionate about that align with your voice. And I think that's been a huge key to my success and the longevity of my career, is that I'm finding books that I love and that I'm excited to get into the booth and record.
And this can be a very draining career. We have to record for so many hours to make a living doing this. When I talk to authors, they're usually shocked at how many books I'm recording. I'm often recording four, five, six books a month. Depending on the length, obviously. But having material that I'm personally excited about has kept things fresh for me, and puts off burnout because it's something that I'm passionate about and that's always fresh and new. I feel so lucky. I can't say that enough. I feel like the luckiest person.
MB: Yeah, and you get to work from your home in Virginia, right? You're in your studio. Are you in your backyard?
NN: Yeah, in my yard I have a shed that is not attractive, it's just full of storage stuff. But I have my booth in the shed, and I get to work from here. And I'm here on this beautiful mountain. I have cats, I have chickens. I get to be here for everything for my kids. I'm at every hockey game, every after-school rehearsal, every choir concert. So, I'm living the dream over here.
MB: Yeah. And listeners can't see this but I can, it looks like you have a window in your little booth.
NN: I do have a window. And I can see the deck when my kids are playing there, and I see my cat walk by on these logs. It's lovely.
MB: That's so nice, because I don't think all the narrators get a window. I don't think people realize how much you have to sit still in a little box for a very long time, and honestly to me that seems like the hardest part of the job. But being able to look outside seems really nice.
NN: Yes, yes. I've definitely had to implement like serious exercise regimens and done physical therapy and stuff to stay active and feeling good with the amount of time that I have to sit still.
MB: Do you have any special things that you bring into the booth for you, or like the ritual of the recording that you make sure to do every day?
NN: I definitely stretch and drink water. I'm not super ritualistic, but I do have a lot of fidgets. I have like squeezy toys and fidget rings and things to keep my hands moving so that I can keep my body still as I'm recording. Also, compression socks. I feel old now, but wearing compression socks has helped a lot with lower ankle leg swelling. I thought it was like, "Oh, I'm not that old, I don't need those." But then I started wearing them, and they really help.
MB: Tips from a narrator, there you go. Can you talk about how your experience with music has helped you narrate audiobooks?
NN: Yes. I feel like my training as an opera singer prepared me pretty perfectly for audiobook narration. First of all, vocally, the amount of time that I spent training my voice to be able to change vowels, colors, ranges. Everything that we need as voice actors, I was practiced and trained to do. And then we did so much text analysis. So much analyzing and memorizing and reciting opera librettos, trained me so well for this job. And then also endurance and stamina. I trained to sing three-, four-hour operas. So, sitting in the booth for six hours reading does not feel like a strain. Only if I'm kind of under the weather or my allergies are really bothering me or I'm starting to get sick will my voice get fatigued. Usually, I get out of the booth and go inside and I read to my kids and go to a hockey game and I cheer for them, and my voice is in great shape. And I know part of that is just being lucky. It's not always skill. But I also did train my voice and sang in operas, and I feel like that set me up really, really well for this.
MB: Do you still get to sing opera?
NN: Not so much these days. Every once in a while, I'll sub for a friend at like a church service or a funeral or something. But not these days. I just read books and hang out on my mountain with my family. It's great. I don't miss it that much. Honestly, it kind of became like a toxic relationship. Someone that I was trying so hard to make love me back, and it just never did. It never paid well, it never felt fulfilling. So I really don't miss it. But I do appreciate that it prepared me to do this job so well.
MB: Totally. Well, now that you have one novel under your belt, are you excited to keep writing?
NN: I don't know. I've definitely said many times, "No more books, this is the last one. The one and only." But then a couple days later I'll be like, "Oh, maybe I should write a book with this friend, and it should be about an opera singer and a violinist." So the answer is, maybe. I am still writing, I run a Patreon with my girlfriend of sapphic, original, spicy stories. And so we are writing those together, and we put out one every month. And I'm narrating them myself. So over the course of the last year we've written a book together. So, that does keep me writing. I don't need a fully fleshed out plot. This is a short story. I can just jump in and it doesn't have to go through endless copy edits and querying and subbing and stuff. So I'm enjoying that. I might write another book at some point. We'll see.
MB: Keeping it fun, keeping it light. Maybe we'll get a music book in the future.
NN: Maybe. I think I definitely want to write from my heart, and I have some things that I really do feel like I have a lot to say about. But I don't think I'm going to be continually writing a book every few years.
MB: Well, before I wrap, it's always nice to ask if there's anything else that you want to talk about.
NN: I guess jumping back to the social media thing, it's been so fulfilling to connect with listeners. That was my main focus when I started my social media. I kind of looked around at the way that people were doing social media and who their audience was. And a lot of narrators, I felt like their audience was other narrators, or it was casting people. And I really started with the intention of connecting with listeners, because they're the consumers of what we're doing. And I feel like that has been so fulfilling, and it has made me feel like I'm performing for an audience, even though I'm just here by myself. And I appreciate listeners and fans so much because they give me the best job in the world. So, I love them so much.
MB: That's so sweet, that's such a sweet note to end on. Thank you so much for your time today, Natalie, and for all your amazing work, both narration and now writing for all those listeners out there.
NN: Thank you so much for having me, I appreciate it.
MB: Of course. And listeners, you can find Natalie Naudus's Gay the Pray Away as well as her numerous narrated works on Audible now.