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Katie O'Connor: Hi, listeners. I'm Audible Editor Katie O'Connor, and today I'm speaking with bestselling author Rufi Thorpe about her latest novel, Margo's Got Money Troubles. Welcome, Rufi.
Rufi Thorpe: Thank you so much for having me.
KO: I'm so excited to be talking to you today. This was such a wild ride, and I just need to give our listeners a little bit of backstory here before we get started. So, as the title implies, Margo's got, well, money troubles. She is a single mom at 20 and is then fired from her waitressing job when she can't find childcare. Now struggling with rent and the cost of living in California on unemployment, her father, Jinx, an ex pro wrestler, moves in with her and she launches an OnlyFans account using his advice on how to craft a character. This is such a unique premise, and I'm curious, what was the originating idea for the story?
RT: Okay, so I had in the back of my mind forever that I wanted to take the two ways our culture is messed up about women, like the Madonna-whore complex, and make a character who was a mom sex worker superhero, kind of. But I never could figure out how it would work because the stigma against sex work is so strong and the pedestal that we put moms on is so intense, but I just thought it would be really fun and subversive, like kind of the opposite of a virginal Wonder Woman-type figure.
And so I had had that idea in my head for the longest time, and then it was really at the beginning of the pandemic, there were a few stand-up comics that I followed on Twitter, women I really thought were funny and admired. And their ability to make a living went away with lockdown entirely. And so two of them wound up starting OnlyFans accounts, and I kind of watched them as they were launching their careers on OnlyFans. And I was just really amazed at how much OnlyFans was this sort of like, people were willing to have the conversation a little bit more. It was more gray area. People weren't as quick to judge it, in part because the profit margin was so huge. And also I think because it was online only, and so it was less physical risk involved. But all of a sudden people, you know, even my Mormon mother-in-law was like, "Well, I dunno. I mean, maybe it's not such a bad idea to do." And so I was like, this is my chance. This is my chance to find a way of making a motherhood sex-work novel that people can really root for the protagonist and there's enough gray area that we can start really asking the questions and having a more nuanced conversation that's not just reactive.
KO: I feel like this needs to become a class. Just listening to you talk about it, too, I'm like, "Yes, yes, yes. All of those things." I love that. I think there'd be really, a class of one, perhaps, at least in me, of sort of the subversive Madonna that you're talking about. It's so interesting. And you paint such a fully realized picture of Margo, and of Jinx as well. And I'm curious about the research that went into those characters. Can you tell me a little bit about what you did to create such fully realized leads?
RT: Well, I mean, wrestling sort of entered the book secondarily. I happened to get obsessed with professional wrestling at the same time that I was writing the book. And, again, it was because it was in the pandemic. My kids were four and seven when the pandemic started. Two little boys. We had a trampoline. All they wanted to do was wrestle all day and watch WWE. And I had grown up raised by a single mom and my grandma. WWE was not on in our house. We were like a musical theater and old Shirley Temple film household. So, I was seeing all of this for the first time. But from the time it was turned on, I was like, "Oh, I have a category for this and it's drag," which I already am such a big fan of. And so I saw all of that kind of campiness and the costumes and the over-the-top sort of flamboyance of professional wrestling already was appealing to me. And so I kind of fell in love with it.
And there's this really rich literary tradition in wrestling of wrestlers’ memoirs. Almost every wrestler has if not multiple than at least one published memoir. And so I just started reading wrestling memoirs and I was just obsessed. And my mom, we were walking the dogs and she was like, "It's a shame you can't bring wrestling into your book. Like, could she become a wrestler?" And I was like, "No, that's too much." And also, I don't want her to leave sex work. I don't want the narrative of the book to be that, "Oh, now she's doing something more respectable and that's pro wrestling.” That was not a message I was interested in sending.
KO: Right. Not the point [laughs].
RT: Not the point. But I was like, "What if it was her dad?" So, I read a lot of wrestling memoirs to write Jinx, and of course watched like every Dark Side of the Ring and wrestling documentary and just an absurd amount of YouTube content. Going over the Monday Night Wars sort of because I hadn't known all of that history, so I needed to catch it up. And there's a wonderful YouTuber called Wrestling with Regret that does synopses of every single Monday night.
For OnlyFans, the research was, I mean, obviously I listened to every podcast and blog and op-ed and I did as much reading as I could, but I really needed to talk to girls. And that was very expensive [laughs], because they are businesswomen that know exactly how much their time is worth and there's really no way of getting in touch with them on social media. Their whole online presence is designed to really control and focus and limit their points of contact with people. So, I started an OnlyFans account and I would send them like a $50 tip to make sure they saw the message, and say, "Hey, I'm a novelist," and link to my work so they knew I was actually a novelist.
"I had in the back of my mind forever that I wanted to take the two ways our culture is messed up about women, like the Madonna-whore complex, and make a character who was a mom sex worker superhero."
And I think that this was also during a time when I felt the most smothered by motherhood kind of, because my husband had very much had a real job and was having to navigate working from home during the pandemic. And I became the overseer of Zoom kindergarten. So, to have on my laptop in another window a porn site open where I'm actively trying to get OnlyFans models to talk to me was, I don't know, it gave me an adult world to still get to be part of. It was like a small subversive thing that I could do to claim my own artistic life was still ongoing, you know? And so that research was all really, really fascinating. But we did have to have budgetary conversations about how much I was allowed to spend of our monthly income on OnlyFans [laughs].
KO: That seems fair [laughs]. You can feel that, though, when you're listening to this story, how much research and personal investment went into it, again, because they are so fully realized. And you do explain for the uninitiated, as well, how these platforms work and also how OnlyFans interacts with social media and how these personas sort of gain traction and everything. It was very interesting, and I did appreciate the parallels to the wrestling world that sort of happened throughout the story. I also loved what you did with point of view. Margo is recounting her story to the listener and switches between third person and first person as she shares the sequence of events, using third person when she needs some distance and some memories that might be particularly hard for her. When while writing did you make this decision?
RT: I do a lot of what I would call, like, pre-writing where I'm trying to basically figure out act 1. And so there's usually this messy period of six months where I'm just exploring. All my other books are in first person. Both my parents were actors, and impersonation, doing a voice, is really my way into character. I think most writers have one that's more natural for them, first or third person. And first person was the most natural. And a lot of times when I tried to write in third person, it was like I was doing a bad impression of Tolstoy or something. I would get like really distant and old-timey, kind of. It was not natural for me.
But I always, of course, wanted to be the kind of elegant, controlled writer who wrote in third person. And so I remember I was experimenting with both, just trying to understand how they worked, so I would write some sections in first person and some sections in third and trying to understand like, what can I do in third that I can't do in first? And what can I do in first that third doesn't allow me to do? Just as like an educational experience for myself. But in the meantime, I was adding in the wrestling element and I was starting to understand what the pieces of her personal empowerment, like the actual mechanics of the plot were going to be.
And I realized that so much of what I was talking about was the donning of the mask, of the creation of persona, and that that's what first person is, right? Everybody knows, you know, you're reading this book and it's written by Rufi Thorpe, but I'm going to put on the Margo mask now and I'm going to act and speak as Margo. And what is that? Why do we do that? It's such an ancient human behavior, mask-wearing, and it's a weird one. It just really interests me. And so I was like, "Oh, okay, the way that I'm writing this is another way that I can explore this same material." And so that's when I started thinking like, "I'm going to tell it in both, and I'm going to make narration itself part of the book."
KO: I love that. And did you sort of go back and then decide where you felt like moments of first person were appropriate, or were you writing it linearly and you're like, "Here, now, this is when I need it"?
RT: I mean, I did a fair amount of doing it intellectually, but also I think doing it by feel. And sometimes I would write a scene in third person and not be happy with it and I'd try writing it in first person and it kind of gave me a really interesting tool. I mean, so basically the way that I work is I write a bunch of this sort of exploratory material and then I'll piece together like a perfect act 1 and then push forward from act 1 and then write to the end, basically. Once I have act 1 and the characters really figured out, it just saves me a lot of time, ultimately.
And so I think that it really depends. Like, as I was piecing together act 1 and also teaching the reader how to play the game of how we're going to be using this narration, then I was really doing it consciously. Whereas, then, once I was pushing forward, I was a lot of times going by feel and trying to figure out, like, “Is this scene better in first or third person and why? And can I switch it from one to the other? What does that do?” And sort of just trying to understand what the most effective way of telling the story was.
KO: I love you calling it act 1, as well. I can feel those sort of musical theater roots of your childhood home coming through. I love that. But this third- versus first-person jump, too, it also builds tension, right? As Margo breaks the fourth wall and in first person lets us know that darker moments are coming and implores us to remember who we were at 20 to try and understand some of her decisions, it really ups the stakes as you're going through the listening. But, as you've been saying, it's also a commentary on character—Margo the character in third person versus Margo the individual in first person, and what's real and what isn't, which we also get from OnlyFans, we get from Margo's relationship with JB, a client who becomes something more. We get it with Jinx and WWE. And I'm curious, as a consumer, where do you think that line between fiction and reality lives?
RT: Oh gosh, I don't know where the line is, but I mean, I think this whole book is sort of a celebration of lying and artifice and our art, you know, art as the artificial, art as in something made on purpose. I couldn't write this book and express all of the same things if I were only allowed to tell the truth, right? But I was able to, through making up all these people and this world and these situations, I was able to say something that I couldn't just say if I were writing like a personal essay or something. You're able to make forms of meaning-making by creating contiguities, like things next to each other, allowing for instance the sex work and the wrestling to exist in the same world so that you can see all the reflections and the similarities and the differences that they cast on each other.
And so I think that we have a very puritanical distrust for the artificial, and I think especially as we become more technologically advanced as a society, there's a great tendency of nostalgia to look back at some sort of previous authenticity that we think that we had. But I think that this book is really arguing that like, "No, we have been weird little monkeys putting on masks and making make-believe from the very beginning. Like, that is a core part of our nature, and it is not to be dismissed or discarded."
But, so, where the line is between reality and fiction is the line of, like, human play, is the line of human emotional necessity. You know, even all these games, it's a distancing gesture, right, to put on a mask and say, “Okay, now I'm somebody else.” But at the same time, you have to go into a room and be alone to read a book or put on your headphones and block out the world to listen to a book. And yet you are seeking human connection by going and being alone. We make these like strange circuitous paths to connect with each other. I guess, as someone who was saved by books, and like raised and nurtured into my full adulthood by books, to me that's really special and beautiful.
KO: I also connect that to a question that you outright ask in the novel about, when you are consuming a book and you are feeling drawn to characters, are you falling in love with a character in that moment? Or are you falling in love with an author in that moment? I thought that was so interesting as I reflected on characters that I have felt drawn to, myself, over the years. But I wanted to flip that and ask who was your favorite character? As you were creating them, as you were bringing them into life, who did you fall in love with in reverse? Who felt the most real to you?
RT: Oh, well, I mean, I love Margo because she's so unashamed. She's such a healthy little animal, you know, when all is said and done. She's just trying to fight for her life, you know? And she's not ashamed and she's not particularly neurotic. I am totally neurotic [laughs].
KO: Aren't we all [laughs]?
RT: Aren't we all? Yeah. Jinx, I love as a character and I think will always love. Susie snuck up on me. I wasn't thinking that I was going to fall in love with Susie, and then she was sort of like the sleeper hit. And then, I don't know, I'm awfully fond of Mark. He's a scoundrel and he's so stupid, but I just—well, and then Cheyenne. Okay, maybe Cheyenne. Cheyenne is the most fun to write. You put Cheyenne in a scene and stuff's going to happen. She just has a lot of energy.
KO: I liked the comparison that you drew between Cheyenne, Margo's mom, and Lucille Ball, just charisma for days. You don't know what type of trouble you're going to be getting into, but you're going to be getting into trouble with this person.
RT: Absolutely. I am so drawn to that kind of person. I love being in their presence. I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, what's going to happen next?"
KO: And with Margo, you are creating a character who is also creating a character in their own world. What was that meta experience like for you?
RT: Well, I mean, I think that writers always love to make books heroizing art-making and writing, it's like a little wish fulfillment thing for us. But it was also like, I don't know, I knew I wanted it to be a book about female empowerment, and I knew I wanted it to be about the actual mechanics of, like, how do you get to that point where you trust yourself, where you trust your own vision? And for Margo, a huge amount of that is she's stepping outside conventional morality. For the most part, most of us make sure that we still feel like we're a good person because of the good opinions of others, and we're able to use those really effectively as a mirror for making sure we're okay. And when you lose the good opinion of others and you don't have that mirror anymore, what do you do? It forces you back on your own self and your judgment.
"I think this whole book is sort of a celebration of lying and artifice and our art, you know, art as the artificial, art as in something made on purpose."
I feel like there's a similar sort of growth when you're an artist, of understanding that only your own artistic judgment can be safely used as a mirror, that there isn't a magical mentor writer who's going to tell you if what you've written is good or not. Only your name goes on it in the end and it is your book and you have to make it the way that you want it. You have to take full ownership for it as a piece of art. And in the same way that, as a woman, you have to take full ownership of your life and make it what you want it to be. And so I think that that was, I don't know, it just was really fun. It was really fun to get to try and figure out how she could learn those lessons.
KO: It's also such an interesting lesson on what makes someone a good person or not, too, right? Margo says at one point, as she is dealing with this custody battle for her son, Bodhi, that she originally thought, "Oh, I should keep the baby because that will make me a good person." But then, in growing up a little bit, realizing that her landlord doesn't care if she's a good person. Her landlord just cares if she can make the rent, right? And you see Jinx, her father, who, because of his persona, some might think is violent, and he does have addiction problems, but you see he is a much more caring and natural parent than her mother, Cheyenne, who was present. And then you have Cheyenne's new husband, Kenny, who as someone who works in the church, you think would be very godly and a good person, but he's really scum. Not going to spoil anything here, but that guy, not a fan. So, it is such an interesting commentary. And what makes a good person? But ultimately, as you were saying, it's yourself. It's what you see and how you feel. And you're the only one that should be making that judgment.
RT: Trying to determine who's a good person and who's a bad person, I think is one of those deep, like, soul confusions for me that started to plague me in childhood and just continued through adulthood. Because the problem is that it's not like people are all one or the other. They're all mixed up together. Most people are capable, under the right circumstances, of doing some pretty terrible things. And a lot of people who have done terrible things are capable of, in moments, doing really wonderful things. It all comes bound up together. And I think that, for me, that's an abiding preoccupation in all my books. I don't know, I just don't get tired of it. Punishment is another thing that I am very, like, doesn't seem to be helping. I understand the desire to do it. Like, I understand the human emotional need for justice, but punishment seems remarkably ineffective at getting people to stop doing bad things.
KO: That's an early parenting lesson as well.
RT: It sure is. It sure is. I think that motherhood really also changed my understanding of what kinds of little animals people were and how things like punishment, you just can see so clearly how ineffective punishment is, especially when you're trying to do it to like a three-year-old. You're like, "This is, what am I, what am I doing here? I'm..."
KO: Can't rationalize with crazy.
RT: Exactly.
KO: So, with this gray area of good versus bad, it also plays into the OnlyFans side of this story because there is so much stigma and prejudice around the sex worker industry, but Margo's Got Money Troubles very much humanizes that industry. It's a very sex-positive story. It's a very feminist story. And there's this really interesting conversation that Margo has with a friend at one point about what makes someone a slut. And again, that's rooted in perspective. And Margo's awakenings and opinions here are really tied to her own journey of growing up, of being 20. What did it take for you to get back into that mindset of a 20-year-old making these decisions at an age where she shouldn't be having to make so many of these decisions?
RT: Oh gosh, that's such an interesting question. I mean, I think that I always try and write about things that I don't have my mind made up about. Because you always, or at least I always want to make sure that fiction doesn't slide into the didactic. Like, you don't want to be like Ayn Rand, right? Making a creepy little diorama that proves your point of view, you know? So, instead, you're really just trying to paint as accurate and interesting a portrait of the problem without offering any kind of solution, which enabled me, like, that's why it's so fun to write the consciousness of someone who's coming into their own, right? Because they're first seeing the problem. And it gives you this unique opportunity to kind of articulate, "Well, wait, what is going on? I've swallowed this cultural groundwater that there's such a thing as sluts and you definitely don't want to be one, but what does that mean?” She's very puzzled. “Like, okay, sex isn't wrong and bad and shameful, and making money isn't bad and wrong and shameful. So, why is it that when you put them together, it's so shameful?” How is the shame getting into the system? She was just such a fun character.
"The amount that the world is not set up to support mothers is astonishing...the lack of maternity leave, how expensive childcare is. In the US, we really, really don't support mothers. And that was also something that I was excited to make real on the page."
One of the things, the hallmarks of youth, or at least as I remember it, is you just have no idea how much danger you're in. So, you're able to be just stupidly brave at points. And I think that that was one of Margo's superpowers, is that she doesn't know how far she could fall. And so she's willing to take risks that a more prudent, like, 32-year-old mom wouldn't in terms of believing in herself, trying to build this career, or even just having a baby on her own in the first place. Like, part of the reason she's brave enough to do it is because she does not think it all the way through. I mean, that comes back on her, but I also did not at all mean for the world of the book to punish her for it. I think that's a really beautiful part of youth, that inherent optimism and bravery in it.
KO: You also explore, too, through Cheyenne being a single mother to Margo and then Margo being a single mother to Bodhi, this concept of motherhood ruining your life, right? Like, Cheyenne says this, "You're going to ruin your life." And Margo realizes that her life, Cheyenne's life, was quote, unquote, “ruined.” But then what that actually means, that there is beauty in doing it, it's not a ruining in a negative sense; it's a ruining in completely turning it around, rebuilding it, and just making it something different and better than it would've been otherwise. That's an interesting dichotomy there too.
RT: Oh, yeah. Well, and for me, growing up in the '90s, the depictions of motherhood were really side notes, and mothers were often really boring characters who just sort of nagged other people. And so I was not expecting becoming a mother to be a profound spiritual experience. And my experience of it was that it was as big and momentous and beautiful as falling in love, which had been super hyped to me. And so I was like, “This is like a secret. It's the secret coolest, most badass thing you'll ever do, but it's cloaked in seeming uncool and boring so that it's like this surprise that, actually, it's this wildly empowering point in your life moment that you go through.”
But then the amount that the world is not set up to support mothers is astonishing. I mean, I was in such a relatively better situation than Margo, but I got pregnant earlier than I had meant to, at 26, and kind of discovered that childcare costs more than how much I made adjunct professoring. And it was shocking. I was like, "How is everyone else doing this?" Like, the lack of maternity leave, how expensive childcare is. In the US, we really, really don't support mothers. And that was also something that I was excited to make real on the page.
KO: So, it's rare for there to be adaptation news before a book even comes out, but that is exactly what's happened here. Margo's Got Money Troubles is performed by actress Elle Fanning, who has been tapped to star in the TV adaptation alongside Nicole Kidman. First, what was it like to have Elle Fanning perform the audiobook knowing that she'll star in the show?
RT: I mean, I am such a fan of hers. And it was interesting, there's actually a moment in The Great where she's been moved to the Russian court and she's so unhappy and she's tried escaping over and over again and she can't, and she's sort of run out of moves and so she's going to kill herself. And she's sitting there crying and her maid's like, "Why don't you just kill him?" And she's like, "Oh." She’s like, “I'd only been seeing the moves of a good girl, but actually I have a lot more agency than I thought," you know? And that was like a key moment for me artistically when I was thinking about writing this book. So, then I got to be in meetings with Elle Fanning and tell her I'm a huge fan, and to have her get to be part of this was just wild.
It felt like such a strange artistic full circle. Like, they couldn't have gotten a more perfect person. And then just hearing her do the audiobook, I mean, she's flawless. I feel like she just is Margo and she has such a light touch, but so much emotion and done so deftly. I just am so wildly impressed with her as a performer. And then to imagine as I'm listening, like thinking about her actually getting to have this role on screen. It's wild. This is beyond your wildest dreams territory of, like, I couldn't have even imagined this happening when I was writing the book.
KO: I agree with you. I can already see her mannerisms as Margo. There's just something in the nuance of her voice when she does a sigh or when she injects very subtle humor. I can see the physicality that's going to accompany that. I'm very, very excited. What has the process been like? Are you involved in the adaptation? Like, talk to me about where you are with this right now.
RT: So, David E. Kelley is writing it. I knew that I didn't want to write it or be actively involved in the writing of it because I kind of think there's a one-to-one nature between a book and a movie, where you're really mostly just making the book in movie form. But I knew that the show, in order to grow and fully become a good show, should depart from the book and I felt like I wouldn't be the best person to do that. So, when David E. Kelley entered the situation, I was like, "Oh, this is amazing. Like, who better could you ask to kind of flesh out this world?" But they've been really amazing in letting me read early scripts and give feedback and commentary. I view myself as more like the breastfeeding and professional wrestling expert. Those are the notes that I'm really equipped to give [laughs]. But it's really exciting watching it all come together. I can't wait. So far, they have not cast Jinx yet, and that's the one that I'm most excited to see who they wind up going with.
KO: Me too.
RT: Yeah, you could go in so many different directions with it.
KO: There are so many themes explored in this novel. We've talked about character, fiction versus reality, sex positivity, but you also cover addiction, religion, family, and what defines a family. If there's one thing, one message that you want listeners to take away from your novel, what would you want it to be?
RT: I mean, I guess something as simple as like, this is your life. It's yours. And so you have all this power. It's so easy I feel like in today's world to feel powerless. There's so many problems, like climate change and gun control, and just the general state of politics. It's really easy to feel small and it's really easy to feel powerless, but it is also true that this is your one shot at it. And you have to make your life something that you love and make yourself something that you're proud of and in love with. And sort of in a way, Margo is making decisions about her life in the way that an artist would, like, "This is how I want it to be and I'm going to make it work, somehow, and I'm going to figure out how to make it work."
"This is your life. It's yours... It's really easy to feel small and it's really easy to feel powerless, but it is also true that this is your one shot at it. And you have to make your life something that you love and make yourself something that you're proud of and in love with."
Okay, this is such a dumb comparison, but there was this kind of bad '90s Drew Barrymore cowgirl movie, I believe called Bad Girls. I have not rewatched this movie. Or do you remember the movie Wild Hearts Can’t Be Broken about the woman that jumps the horse into the barrel of water over and over and she goes blind? These were two movies that, for whatever reason, were on cable a lot when I was a little girl. And I would watch them and be like, "This is the kind of female bravery that I want when I grow up." And I wanted to write something that left people with that feeling of like, "I want to be a badass." And so that was maybe not like an ideological takeaway from the book, but that feeling of like, "Margo's a badass, and I want to be a badass, and women can be badasses."
KO: I feel motivated to walk out of here and go do that myself [laughs]. Bring it back into this office, bring it on into motherhood later tonight and just own that power. Thank you. That was a great answer. So, what is next for you?
RT: Oh, I am writing a Little League novel.
KO: Get out of town. Oh, I'm so excited.
RT: Okay, so kind of like following all those same questions about morality and how do you judge people. I'm just fascinated by gossip and group perceptions of people and how they change based on what facts come out, and the stories that get told about people. I live in a very small and baseball-obsessed town. Our town won the Little League World Series last year, and so it was a big deal. There were multiple parades. The adults spend way too much time and money focusing on children's baseball. It is both utopic and so beautiful and the best community that I've ever been a part of, and, like, obviously satirical, you know. It's, like, both.
I also just feel like one of the things I learned as I was writing Margo was that my memories, I mean, my kids now are 9 and 11, and my memories of that baby time, of that first year, are so indistinct and hazy. I really had to go back and think, and I'm sure there's so many moments that if I had written it closer to when I had baby-babies, I could have done a better job. And I just feel like I want to write an ode to, like, the music of 10- and 11-year-old boys, like the way they talk and all the slang and they're constantly like singing to each other weird, dorky little songs. I want to capture some of the beauty of 11-year-old boys.
KO: Well, as a mom to four of them, I can't wait for that. Sign me up. Rufi, thank you so much for your time today. I loved getting to chat with you.
RT: Thank you so much for having me. These were such phenomenal questions. It's so fun getting to talk about this book with you.
KO: It was a phenomenal story. And listeners, you can get Margo's Got Money Troubles right now on Audible.
