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Christina Harcar: Hello, I'm Audible Editor Christina Harcar and I have the pleasure today to speak with Sarah Cooper about her upcoming original audio, Let's Catch Up Soon: How I Won Friends and Influenced People Against My Will. You may already be familiar with Sarah Cooper as a comedian and the author of 100 Tricks to Appear Smart During Meetings. And of course, in 2020, her TikTok lip syncs of the president brought her fame, fans, and a Netflix special. All of these experiences and more make Sarah Cooper the ideal voice to revisit Dale Carnegie's 20th century classic How to Win Friends and Influence People. In Let's Catch Up Soon, Sarah ponders each and every one of Carnegie's self-help tips with hilarious and sometimes meaningful results.
Welcome, Sarah, it's great to speak to you.
Sarah Cooper: It's good to speak to you, too, Christina.
CH: So, my first question is how did you and Dale Carnegie, the author of How to Win Friends and Influence People, find each other?
SC: Well, I think Dale and I had been kind of circling each other in different circles as two authors who talk about how to deal with people do. I had never read How to Win Friends and Influence People but I'd heard of it. A lot of people say, like, “Oh, my dad recommended it.” My dad never recommended it, but I wrote this book called 100 Tricks to Appear Smart in Meetings, and a lot of these tricks were similar to his tricks, and so people would often mention it to me. But I didn't actually read the book until someone paid me to [laughs]. Which was Audible, and Audible was like, “Yeah, we'll pay you to read this book and come up with your own take on it.” And that's when I actually finally came face to face with Dale Carnegie.
CH: Getting paid to read books, as you know, is kind of my stock-in-trade. So, your honor is intact with me.
SC: Capitalism.
CH: In your audio, I was delighted to hear the voice of Dale in your internal dialogue with him. Can you talk a little bit about what kind of character Dale Carnegie appeared to be for you in your own mind?
SC: Yeah, I was at a party telling someone about this book, and it was early in my read of the book where I was still very much against Dale Carnegie. I had read the book and I decided that these principles were BS. And one of the things he says in the book, I was telling a friend, he says, “When I find out someone's birthday, I write it down and then I send them a card.” And I was just like, “Dude, we have Facebook now, we don't need that, okay? Like, whoop-de-do, good for you,” you know? And I found that voice while I was describing it to my friend. I was like, “That's kind of funny, that's how he sounds in my head.”
He's just this, I don't know, dotty old man who has these ridiculous ideas that are so simplistic and stupid and brainless. And he's this old man telling you how to live your life. And so when I did that with a friend, she just burst out laughing, and I was like, “Oh, maybe that's kind of funny.” He's this voice in my head that I actually deride and don't agree with. And then throughout the book, you can start to tell that the voice is really just me talking to myself through him, sort of. I think it helped me and the audience bring to life what I was doing.
Because when I was going out and smiling and trying to remember names, I did sort of have this voice in my head of “No, you gotta do this. You gotta try it. You gotta do it, just do it, just do it.” Because I really didn't want to talk to people. I really didn't want to engage with strangers. And not even strangers just like, you know, the security guard at my WeWork building. I didn't want to engage. I didn't want to have the small talk. I didn't want to do any of that, but I had his voice in my head telling me to do that. And I felt it was a cool way to let people in on how I was going about this journey.
CH: I loved it. I thought that he sounded stereotypically avuncular until he came to life as the other you. I thought the section on “act genuinely interested” was the one where your experiences with Dale Carnegie really came to life. Would you say that that's the most fruitful tactic for you personally?
SC: A lot of times these thought leaders—and I would consider Dale Carnegie as sort of a thought leader. And I say that not in a respectful way because I have no respect for thought leaders at all [laughs]. They just have these things: “Just do this and it'll work.” “Here's three ways to change your life in 24 hours or less,” you know. And it never works. And I felt that way about this principle “be genuinely interested.” I'm like, am I supposed to…how am I supposed to be genuinely…you're asking me to change my entire being, because you're asking me to be genuinely interested in somebody that I'm probably not interested in.
And it was really a mindf—k for me of like, “Wait, how am I supposed to do that?” Because in our society, and especially in the corporate world, you're not genuine, you're faking everything. You're faking every conversation, every interaction. Every meeting is just words that you wouldn't normally use. You're adjusting your glasses to make yourself look smarter. You're doing so many things that aren't genuine.
So, for me, it was like, what does genuine mean? What does it mean to be actually genuine? And it's a question of authenticity and all the things that people always explore, but I've never really explored it. And I came to the realization in that chapter that to be genuinely interested you have to know what's interesting to you. And I didn't know what was genuinely interesting to me. And even if I did, I had trouble sharing it or using it to engage someone because I was such a people-pleaser that I was like, “My interests don't matter. It's all about the other person.”
"To be genuinely interested you have to know what's interesting to you."
And so taking stock of what I find interesting, and then using that to drive conversations and find things to talk with another person about. I had a Lyft driver, he was taking me to the airport. Now, most Lyft drivers would be like “Oh, you're going on a trip.” This Lyft driver said, “Do you work at the airport?” Which was a weird question, because why would you assume that I work at it? You just put my luggage in the trunk. Like, no. And the reason why was because he used to work at the airport, and then I started talking to him about that. And he was kind of using his experience to drive the conversation, and then we started talking about something that we were both interested in, like what it's like to work at the airport. And that's okay to do. It's okay to start off with “Yeah, I really love free bread at restaurants. Where's the best free bread?” Which is something that I talk about in the book. You have these things that you love, figure out what they are, and then find people that also love those things.
CH: Yeah. I think that's very profound, too, that in order to find common ground, you have to be present. It takes two people to find common ground.
SC: Exactly.
CH: Which I loved. Can I go back for one quick second to what you just said about thought leaders?
SC: Mm-hmm.
CH: Because once again, and not for the first time, you opened up a bird cage in my heart and something flew free. Because for years, every time I hear the words “thought leadership,” I think toxic simplicity.
SC: Yes, yes. Toxic simplicity. I actually have never heard that phrase, but it is so true. And we are in such an Instagram culture of little snippets of things that are supposed to change your life. And some of these inspirational quotes and things you should do are great, but, man, it's a lot more work than that, it really is.
CH: Yeah, it's a minute to learn, a lifetime to master.
SC: Mm-hmm.
CH: So, that's kind of what I wanted to get to. There were two principles in particular that I always thought, without putting it into words, were just, you know, problematic for women. Because to be a woman in business you're carrying extra baggage when these things come up. And you ran right at them in the audio, which I loved. And the first one was, of course, “smile more.”
SC: Yes.
CH: Can you talk about what it's like to be you getting the advice from Dale Carnegie to smile more?
SC: I really hated it. I have struggled with smiling all my life. Because, like I talk about in the book, there's a song called “Sara Smile,” which was written before I was born, and people would sing it to me. In fact, just yesterday I told a few people that this song terrorized my life, and then they started singing it, “Sara Smile.” Like, they just started, they just went into it. And I was like, “But I just told you I hate that song.” [Laughs] I've gone through phases where I was like, “You know what, this year’s New Year's resolution is not smiling.” You know what I mean? I'm not doing it unless I really want to.
But I always smile. I smile out of nervousness. For me, smiling just comes really, really naturally. But oftentimes it's not a real smile; it's more of a nervous smile or just a smile to get by, to get along with people, to keep the peace, you know, those kinds of smiles. So, I didn't really like getting that advice at all. There's a video of a woman walking through the streets of New York and she's told to smile a million times. And it's so frustrating because there's so much about the world right now that tells women we don't have control over our bodies. And there's nothing more exemplary of that than, “Oh, you gotta make your face look nice for me.” Um, no this is my face, I do what I want with my face.
And it was a big revolution for me of just being like, “Yeah, no, I can control my face.” But smiling and feeling excited to meet people and feeling joy—that, actually, I do want to do. And this whole idea that our smiles have sort of been stolen from us because we're told to smile so much that we are often doing it for other people, we're often not doing it for ourselves. And the point is, we need to reclaim our smiles. We need to smile for ourselves. Smiling isn't bad; being told to smile is bad and annoying. But the actual smiling—feeling joyful, feeling happy, happy to be there—that's not bad. And so that chapter really is about reclaiming that.
CH: About not letting your natural generosity get outraged or co-opted. I loved how you talked about that, just now and also in the audio.
SC: Thank you.
CH: So, my—
SC: You're so good at compliments, Christina.
CH: That's because I'm genuinely interested in taking down the patriarchy [laughs] and—
SC: Yes [laughs].
CH: And how everything you just said about smiling is how I was reared for never complaining. Which means that in the secret recesses of my mind, I have a list of grievances.
SC: Mm-hmm.
CH: So, I wanted to segue into that Dale Carnegie moment, the Dale Carnegie tip about “never complain or push back.” I've totally blocked it out.
SC: There's three C's. It's, like, don't complain, condemn, or there's another C.
CH: Don’t criticize, condemn, or complain.
SC: I feel like I saved my complaining for larger issues, to the detriment of my own personal life. I could complain about the patriarchy, I could complain about those things. But when it came to interpersonal conflict, I always wanted to keep the peace, and that was a problem. And that's why I hated this “don't complain” because I was, like, “I don't complain, I keep my mouth shut constantly.” And Dale isn't saying—it was just kind of a misinterpretation—he's not saying “don't speak your mind,” you know, he's just saying “speak your mind in a way that's constructive.”
I say this in the book: This isn't a manual for women, because women have been doing this. We do this already. We bite our tongues constantly. We don't criticize. But then we get on Twitter and we have some, you know, confidence [laughs]. Keyboard confidence, they call it. And there is a better way to speak your mind, and that's kind of what I learned.
And then I did this whole thing with this childhood boyfriend who dumped me very publicly. And I condemned him, and he dumped me publicly. And I thought about what he was going through and thought about it from his perspective. And the fact that, just because you have an issue with someone doesn't mean you keep your mouth shut. You actually speak up and you say it, but maybe you say it in a way where you try to understand where they're coming from and you give them the benefit of the doubt versus just saying, “You're a bad person.” Because that immediately puts them on the defensive.
And so working through that and realizing “Hey, I do need to speak up, but I can speak up in a way that”—and I still don't speak up. I will tell you, I don't know what it is, but when I'm in a public place, invariably, it'll be completely empty, but somebody will come and sit right next to me and they will start playing a video on their phone without headphones. It has happened three times in the last week! And I don't know what it is, I still don't know how to bring myself to say, “Can you put on headphones, or can you turn it down?” I do it in the book and I'm able to get the courage to do it because I have Dale's voice in my head. But Dale's voice hasn't been in my head lately. And I couldn't do it.
But in the book, all I did was say, “Can you turn it down a little bit?” And he did, and it was fine. In my head, there was all of this emotion. And when you actually talk to somebody, simply asking them if they could make a small change, usually it's fine, it's fine. And so it's like, yes, don't criticize, condemn, or complain, but don't keep your mouth shut at the same time.
"When you actually talk to somebody, simply asking them if they could make a small change, usually it's fine... so it's like, yes, don't criticize, condemn, or complain, but don't keep your mouth shut at the same time."
CH: Right, have keyboard confidence even in life.
SC: Yes.
CH: I love this concept of voices in the head, because, as you know, I live with many of them already. But also because it perfectly describes what our medium is. So, I wanted to segue over to ask you about how did it feel for you to write toward audio and to bring out all of these voices in your head. And then literally to bring them forward by performing them alone in a soundproof booth, which is not a regular situation for authors and comedians.
SC: Yeah, it was not easy. I think especially writing it. I wanted to make it as conversational as possible. And I will say that writing in sort of a stream of consciousness way, especially with the first draft, helped with that a lot. I think there are a lot of things that are, if you read it, you don't quite get what I'm saying versus when you hear it, you feel like, “Oh, she's being a little sarcastic there, or she's actually not serious about that.” But it was hard to do because you're in this booth and you're alone and you want to make it feel like you're talking to a friend, but you're also Sarah Cooper, so you're like, “Hear ye, hear ye,” you know, being a little bit too [performative]. I really had to struggle to get to a point where I felt like I was just having an intimate conversation with the reader. And I think I got it in a few places, and I definitely didn't get it in a few other places, but it was such an interesting exercise.
The entire book, the entire experience of writing this book has been a journey to the center of me that I'm so thankful for. Like, I'm going to cry now. Because it really, it changed my life, it really did. And the audio, I remember going into the booth that first day and reading that story about my mom and wondering what's going to happen when she's gone. And I just burst into tears. And I don't cry in front of people. I mean, I didn't used to. I do now.To expose myself like that to people that I just met, it really made me realize how you do see yourself more when you're in front of people versus when you're alone and by yourself. You're able to really explore every facet of yourself more when you're with people than when you're alone. And I felt like, for a long time, I was alone so much that I really didn't get to see myself as much as I did through the experience of writing this book.
CH: That is such a lovely thing for you to share, thank you.
SC: Thank you.
CH: I believe fervently that there's a sacred space around silence that we fill up with all of that stuff you've just described. So, you kind of just restored my faith. But also, as someone who has met your lovely mom and your family at a social event, one of the charming things about your audio—and I totally want to underline what you said, it's much more nuanced when you perform it, and there were things that hit me a totally different way. And for what it's worth, I think you did a stellar job and it's a great performance. But I felt like I kind of knew you. And after experiencing this work, I feel like I know you a lot better. So that's a gift. But also, I wanted to probe that a second, because a lot of fans feel like they know you, I suspect, from 2020 and those TikTok lip synchs.
SC: Mm-hmm.
CH: And this is the exact opposite of that, right? The TikTok lip synchs, you didn't write them, it wasn't your voice, but you were totally visual. And this is, you wrote it, you performed it, and no one can see what you look like. Do you feel like that was the sea change? Or does that make you feel more comfortable going forward in a different way in your work?
SC: Yeah. I'm working on a piece of myself at a time, and I feel like I worked on myself as a writer with The Cooper Review and the blogs I did. And I didn't want to put my face really anywhere. I made a few videos here and there, but it was really more about the text. And even in design, when I worked at Google, I hid behind those Photoshop mocks. Like, those mocks where my work; you don't look at me, you look at my work. And then the TikToks were just my face. And it wasn't my voice, but it was me, and I became this recognizable face. I became the face of someone who saved people through the pandemic. And I say that because people say that to me, and I get everyone saying that to me. I can't believe how common a sentiment that is that I get from people, all walks of life, everywhere I go, “You saved me” [laughs]. And it's such an overwhelming feeling to know that I had that effect on people.
And then this book is just my voice, and I got to work on just my voice. And I've always wanted to be an actress. And so now I'm like, “Put the two together, Sarah, you can do it. You can put the face and the voice together and pursue that dream finally.” So, for me it's just been this cool stepping through of exposing more and more of myself to my audience, and learning more about myself and then teaching them more about myself. And what you said about how you thought you knew me, and now you feel like you know me a lot better, I feel the same way about me. I thought I knew myself, and now I really know myself.
CH: That's fabulous. You mentioned Google, and another aspect of this audio is that it's almost an autobiography of your career as a performer. You really capture your path to being a celebrity. And what's so fabulous about that is that you nurtured a creative dream even while you were working in tech to pay off debt. And I was just curious, now that you've fully made that transition, are there things you miss about your tech career in your new iteration?
SC: Steady jobs, steady paycheck, those kinds of things. Not having to worry about those things. Because being in this world, it's very much gig-based. You know how you're going to be doing for maybe the next year, but you don't know what next year's going to look like. And you don't know what the following year is going to look like. It's a little nerve-racking, and especially being in this community. I was talking to a friend last night who was scared because she just finished a job and she didn't know when her next job—she's an actress and a writer. And that feeling is a little tough. I always say to myself, “If I go broke next year, I'm just going to move in with my sister. You know, move in with my mom.” I have a backup plan and that's kind of my way of being like, “It's going to be okay no matter what.”
But I have to say that I feel I'm living my dream more than I ever did at Google. I love my Google peeps, love you guys to death. Love Google as a company, love the offices, love the nap pods, they were great. But I just feel more fully me in this world. I feel more fully me talking to other performers and writers and directors and people that are in this world. I feel more alive than I've ever felt. So, for me, I feel like it was a long path and I feel like a lot of the—if there are any young people listening, the reason why it took me so long was, a lot of that was because I was forcing things. I was really trying to force it. I was like, “I gotta do this. I'm 30. I gotta be famous. I gotta do this.” And I kept getting smacked back by life, like, “Nope, you're gonna work at Google now.”
And it all kind of worked out, because I've lived all of these experiences that I can use in my work now, which is really, really great. I feel like taking your time, there's something to be said for taking your time and not walking into your startup and being like, “Make me VP,” which I totally did [laughs]. I just wanted everything immediately. And I think kids a lot of times, they just want everything immediately and it's, like, take your time, learn yourself, figure out who you are and attract those things into your life. And that was a long and circuitous path, but hopefully I answered your question.
CH: Oh, absolutely. That's where I was going. I wanted someone who is not me to tell the young people of the world that it's an assignment-less life, thank you.
SC: So, I can actually tell you, because it's going to be announced on Tuesday, that I'm in Jerry Seinfeld's next movie. And I'm here in LA living out of a hotel because I am shooting this movie right now. And yesterday I was on set with Jerry Seinfeld, Melissa McCarthy, and Hugh Grant.
CH: Oh, my goodness, congratulations.
SC: Thank you. I was in heaven. I'm pinching myself, literally, every day. I was able to have a one-on-one with Jerry Seinfeld last week where I was able to tell him how amazing it was for him to share my video, because he was one of the first people to share my video. And now he's given me a part in this movie. He never thought he'd make a movie; he thought he was just going to focus on standup. And he made this movie and he gave me this part and every moment I have on this set is just a dream come true. And I just don't think I would, I wouldn't be here without all of these experiences. I was even talking to the barista at the hotel, I was like, “I'm shooting a movie.” And he was like, “Oh, you're a producer?” And I got offended because I was like “No, I'm an actress.” But then I was like, “I have a producer vibe, I'm okay with that. I'm gonna use it.”
CH: I know that there is going to be a publicity machine and levers far greater than what I'm saying now, but please be assured that all of the Audible editors and everyone in my life is going to be sitting there clutching our tickets on opening night. This is so exciting, and I am so happy for you. I cannot wait to see that film.
SC: Oh my gosh, it's going to be incredible.
CH: My next question was going to be what gives you the most joy—writing jokes, writing books, or performing? The joy in your voice is so palpable when you talk about this.
SC: Yeah.
CH: I mean, please answer the question, but I think I know where you're going.
SC: I mean, this has been amazing. I'm learning a lot. Acting for me has always been a struggle, because of the people-pleasing. You want to do everything perfectly, but guess what, to be an interesting actor you gotta f—k up, you gotta be messy, you gotta make mistakes. Like, that's what's interesting. You gotta be unpredictable. And that's kind of what was funny about those Trump videos was you can watch them 100 times and you still don't really know what I'm about to do. You don't really see it coming. And that's because I didn't see it coming. I was just doing what came naturally as I was recording. And so I'm learning a lot about how to actually bring that to life as an actor. I haven't gotten there yet but hopefully will.
But I also love writing. I'm working on a pilot. I'm working on another book. Writing, to me, if I had my druthers, which I hate that word but I will use it [laughs], I would spend a day—my perfect day is it's a rainy day, I'm at the coffee shop, I'm on my laptop, I've got an oatmilk latte and a savory croissant, and I'm a little high and I'm just writing. I love that. I love that, and I also love being on set and performing and trying like hell to make people laugh. And trying way too hard and then realizing I'm trying too hard and then trying less. I love that process as well. So, I kind of just love all of it. I love the whole world of sharing and stories and bringing them to life and making people feel things. I love the whole world of it.
CH: You just kind of summarized Audible and also my career and all of us who are doing this, so thank you.
SC: Isn't it great?
CH: It is. It's a privilege and a pleasure. That's why it's always a luxury for me to stop doing what I consider my day job, which is my actual job, and do interviews with talent.
SC: Well, you're doing an amazing job Christina, an amazing job.
CH: Well, it's my joy, and actually gets me to my almost final question, which is, okay, Sarah Cooper, cafe society 2022 with the savory croissant, oatmilk latte. What do you want listeners to take away from the experience of listening to you in this audio?
SC: I will say that I want everyone to take away whatever they want to take away. I don't want to be prescriptive about what you take away from it. But if you want any advice, the one thing I will say is get to know yourself, get to know who you really are. I feel like a lot of these thought leader type books, these self-help-type books, again it's toxic simplicity. They tell you these steps, but they don't actually tell you how. And I tried very hard in the book to be like, “Write in a journal, read your journal, start taking pictures of things you like, start taking pictures of things you hate.” Like, just get to know your taste, your style, what makes you laugh, what makes you cry. Get to know your feelings, where they come from, name your feelings. You're feeling angry—name it, feel it, you know. Let's stop hiding behind these tricks to appear smart. Let's stop hiding behind these things and start being ourselves. And to do that you’ve got to figure out who you are.
"If you want any advice, the one thing I will say is get to know yourself, get to know who you really are."
That's the one thing that I hope—that people will get to know themselves and then use that to find a community of people, a family of friends that will be with them for the rest of their lives so we can stop feeling like we're alone. Because a lot of us feel very alone, and we don't need to be.
CH: That's a great note to end on. I want to say amen to everything you just said, but also thank you. Thank you for your time today, thank you for your candor about the new upcoming projects. Thank you for all the work you put into your audio, which I think is amazing, and also the performance.
SC: Thank you.
CH: And, you know, let's catch up soon. Don't be a stranger [laughs].
SC: I would love to catch up with you, Christina.
CH: Terrific. And listeners, I want you all to know that you can get Let's Catch Up Soon, written and performed by the inimitable Sarah Cooper, right now at Audible.com.
