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Christina Harcar: Hello. I'm Christina Harcar, Audible's history editor. I've been working in audio for a long time, since 1998. I'm not a pioneer of our format; I stand on the shoulders of giants. But I have had numerous opportunities to listen to performances by Scott Brick and to observe his trajectory as an A-list talent for audio and beyond. From mysteries and thrillers—think Tom Clancy, Robert Littell, Gregg Hurwitz, Brad Meltzer, just to name a few—to narrative nonfiction such as Ron Chernow's Hamilton, Erik Larson's Devil in the White City, Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven, and my favorite, the Audible production of Helter Skelter by Vincent Bugliosi, Scott's immersive single-voice narrations and full-cast recordings lead his fans from genre to genre and story to story.
So, while I'm very fortunate to work in a format graced by thousands of one-of-a-kind voices, Scott Brick always comes to mind when I try to explain to new listeners what makes listening so special. And when the Audible editors chat about Scott Brick, one of the things that makes him unique is his career-defining oeuvre of titles from the Dune Chronicles. Today I have the pleasure and luxury of discussing all things Dune with the master himself. Welcome, Scott.
Scott Brick: Thank you so much for having me, Christina. It's so good to be here.
CH: This is such a pleasure. So, I'm going to dive right into the obvious question. Do you consider yourself a Dune fan?
SB: Oh, my God, yes. I like to think that I am in the top 10 Dune fans of all time. Let's put it this way: There's a language of Dune that the Fremen speak, Chakobsa. And it's been my job for 20 years now to create the audio glossary of how all those words are spoken. I now have 2,000 of them. So, I like to say that there's only three people on Earth who can speak fluent Chakobsa, and that's Brian Herbert, Kevin J. Anderson, and myself. So, I figure, if nothing else, that might put me up a little bit higher on the list of Dune fans.
CH: Wow. I feel like you brought a howitzer to a knife fight with me.
SB: To be honest, I can go back even further than my working on the series. That's why I was so excited when I was approached about narrating Dune, because I had read them 20 years before, when I was in high school and college. I remember walking into a Waldenbooks store—remember those, everybody?—and picking up a copy of Chapterhouse: Dune, which was the sixth and final book that Frank [Herbert] wrote, even though it was a cliffhanger and there was supposed to be a Dune 7. I remember the manager handing me the book and saying, "Well, enjoy it. We're not gonna get any more." Because Frank had just passed away. I remember thinking, "Oh, my God, that's a tragedy. Couldn't one of his kids maybe pick it up?" And lo and behold, 16 years later, I get the call, and I flashed back to that day in that bookstore and I’m thinking, "Yes. All of these things that I've been wanting for 20 years, more Dune. It's finally here."
I couldn't believe that they picked me. I mean, there are times I find myself working on a series and thinking, "They're paying me to do this?" I remember when Brian Herbert and I first connected. He sent me handwritten notes by his father about pronunciations. And it's coming out of my thermal paper fax. That's how long ago it was. This thermal paper is rolling out, and I'm seeing, "Oh, okay. It's [pronounced] Fremen. Oh, it's the Bene Gesserit. Oh, it's Hark-eh-nnen. Not Hark-oh-nnen, like they did in the silly '80s movie." I remember just thinking, "How did I get here? I have Frank Herbert's notes coming out of my fax machine. It's insane."
"I couldn't believe that they picked me. I mean, there are times I find myself working on a series and thinking, 'They're paying me to do this?'"
CH: It's exciting. Thank you for sharing. I think everyone has some kind of meet-cute story about finding Dune.
SB: As far as those stories go, I don't know if there was one any better than Brian Herbert's, how he discovered the series, because of course, he was growing up while his father was writing it. But, well, let's just say it was a troubled relationship. A lot of anger on Brian's part. He talks about all this in the biography he wrote of his father, Dreamer of Dune. And he also talks about that moment where he's in a taxi, I wanna say. I seem to remember that he was crossing the Golden Gate Bridge. And he's chatting with the driver, and the driver talks about being a writer or something. And Brian says, "Yeah, my father's a writer." "Really? What's he written?" "Dune." And at this point, Brian had never read it. He didn't really want to read it because of that frustrating relationship. And the driver freaked out and said, "Are you kidding me? Your father wrote that book?"
Brian said it was the response of somebody he had just met, who just raved about the series to such an extent, that made him go back and pick it up and set aside the anger—which, fortunately, later, they were able to get past—and just revel in the series. He went to his father and told him how much it meant to him. And it was really a lovely moment. And I think, "Wow, even Frank Herbert's son, Brian, had a come-to-Dune moment."
CH: Let's just skip ahead and talk about Dreamer of Dune, because it comes out in audio shortly, so listeners who are listening to this interview can certainly find it in our store. I was wondering what you thought was the most important lesson for creators, for actors, writers, in Dreamer of Dune. What did you take away from it?
SB: Well, I’ve got to be honest, my takeaway is a lot more touchy-feely rather than the way to approach the work. One of the main stories of Dreamer of Dune is cherish your family while you're working on your great work. Cherish your family while you're writing. And I'm not alone in that. Stephen King, in his wonderful memoir On Writing, talks about the importance of making sure that he is always available to his family.
I think it's really important. Frank was a single-minded artist who was almost tyrannical in the way he approached his work and the isolation that he insisted upon—kids couldn't come in, wife couldn't come in. When he was working, by God, he was working. At the time, it caused fractured relationships with all of his kids. I think there's a lot that we can learn from Frank about the way that he wrote. But I think there's also a lot we can learn about Frank from the way that he lived.
CH: Yes. And kudos to Brian for that book. Like you just said, he really does put his family at the center of this portrait. There were moments when it was painful, but there were also a lot of loving and triumphant moments too. And it made it heartfelt.
SB: I completely agree. And I think that's one of the triumphs of the book is that Brian is always willing to lay himself bare. He portrays his father in as realistic a portrait as he can. And Beverly [Frank’s wife] is inextricably linked with the Dune universe. She was a writer. She gave up her career in order to be a mother and to support Frank. And she always consulted on the Dune novels. There are characters in there that are directly influenced by her. There was in Chapterhouse: Dune, and then Sandworms of Dune and Hunters of Dune. It's an old man and an old woman. And at one point they're gardening. I told Brian when we did some audio for the end of those productions, I said, "Brian, I can't help thinking of Frank and Beverly when I read these characters." He told me that he hadn't even seen that connection until we spoke. And he gasped a little bit and he said, "My mother loved gardening."
Even unintentionally, Beverly always came into the work. And I don't remember whether it was in Heretics of Dune, which was five, or at the end of Chapterhouse: Dune, which was six, Frank wrote a heartfelt tribute to Beverly, talking about how Dune wouldn't exist without her. And that's why I loved Dreamer of Dune so much. I think it's impossible to know the Dune saga without knowing Frank Herbert. But I don't think you can know Frank Herbert or the Dune saga without knowing Beverly Herbert.
CH: Thank you so much for sharing that. It reminds me of something that Imani Perry said in one of these interviews that I just keep coming back to so much this year. She talked about the beauty of “submerged connections.” And I would say that that story you just told, about Brian Herbert saying to you, "My mom loved gardening," that is a beauty-of-submerged-connections moment.
SB: I think it's illustrative of what can happen when we don't think about things, when we instead, we feel them. If you use technique only, without wedding it to the emotional truth of the narrative, whether it's fiction or nonfiction, then it's an empty experience.
Do you mind if I tell one last story about something else I learned from Dreamer? The thing about Beverly is that she loved so wholeheartedly. And she embraced Jan, Brian's wife. She embraced her so wholeheartedly. Sadly, Jan lost her mother too young. And Beverly was a second mother to Jan. Every year at Christmas, Beverly would get Jan something to do with poinsettias, a brooch, an ornament, the flowers themselves, whatever it was. Jan just loved poinsettias. On their last Christmas, which was in Hawaii, Beverly had inoperable cancer. They were trying to find an environment that would keep her alive. Even in Hawaii, when Jan came over, Bev had planted poinsettias. And they don't thrive in Hawaii. She was barely able to keep them alive long enough for Jan to see them. And it connected to me viscerally because I live for Christmas. Christmas is my love language. In my booth, I have Christmas decorations everywhere, all year round, because it makes me happy. I can thrive in my booth, which is great, because I'm gonna spend a third of my life in there, right?
A friend of mine, he opens a store for three or four months a year and he sells vintage Christmas items. He's got a massive collection. And I basically live there for those three or four months. But I went in after recording Dreamer, and I said, "I need something vintage with poinsettias on it." And I found a beautiful table runner and four placemats. And I mailed them up along with a Christmas card that my girlfriend, Suzanne, handmade for them with poinsettias, of course. And I just put a note in, and I said, "I'm sorry that Jan hasn't had anybody to give her these for so many years. But if I may be so bold, I'd like to do that now in Beverly's honor."
And he sent me the loveliest e-mail I've ever received in my life. He said, "This is the sweetest, most thoughtful gift we've ever received." He said, "We can't wait for next Christmas so we can use them." I was blown away that somebody I've known for 20 years, how did I not know that story? So, if for no other reason, I'm grateful to have done Dreamer of Dune for that.
CH: I'm grateful that you did Dreamer of Dune and put it in audio. Scott Brick productions. Can you share the story of how Dreamer of Dune came to be in audio?
SB: Well, we started talking about it—we met at the Audie Awards, I think, in 2002. It was when Dune: The Butlerian Jihad won the Audie Award for best science fiction book of the year. And Brian and Kevin came and they presented an award. That's when he and I first started talking about it. And a couple of years later, as we started to get to know one another more, when we would be in town, we'd have a get together and have lunch, or dinner, or what have you. He said, "You know, I feel like that book isn't finished because it's not on audio. Everything else is, but not that one. And it would really complete it for me." And I made it my mission. And it took way too long. Took more than 10 years to make happen, but I was finally able to make it happen. And I'm so proud of it, and so happy for Brian.
CH: Wow. Well, welcome to the life of an acquisitions editor. So, can you generate a new sentence for me in Fremen? [laughs]
SB: I can't. But I can give you some Fremen sentences. This was a sentence done in the very first volume. And it is basically being translated from Fremen to English. And remember that [with] the Fremen, everything about water is to be measured and counted. This was done, as I recall, at a funeral: [Speaks Chakobsa] “This is the water.” [Speaks Chakobsa] “Never the more.” [Speaks Chakobsa] “To be measured and counted.” That's essentially it.
CH: That was strangely beautiful.
SB: That's the thing about Frank's work. You didn't always understand the direct meaning, but you always knew by context what it was.
CH: Yes. It's exactly like an actor knowing all of the subtext and the entire life story of a character who appears for 10 seconds on screen. I think you just articulated what makes the Dune stories, all of them, such a rich universe. It's amazing. So, who is your favorite character? Who's in your pantheon of characters that you personally love to voice?
SB: There are three characters that I dearly love every time they're on screen. One is from primarily the Legends of Dune series, which started with the Butlerian Jihad. He was a sentient android named Erasmus. And he was so evil. And maybe it's just the fact that every actor wants to play the bad guy occasionally. He would just look at these horrible things that he was doing and he would say, "Yes, but it's for the greater good." There's a time when he decides to raise a human child to prove that he can do it. And there's a scene where he gives them the sex-ed talk and he uses the anatomically correct mannequins. It's absolutely hysterical. I wish I had it on hand and could read a section of it.
I tried doing that at a live reading one time for librarians, and I just couldn't get through it without laughing. But Erasmus is wonderful because he's Pinocchio. He wants to be a real boy. And he's morally complex.
One of the other two characters that I love to record is Emperor Shaddam because, if for no other reason, in that 1985 film by David Lynch, which I actually love, he was played by José Ferrer, who's one of my favorite actors of all time. And he had this deep, rich baritone. "Cousin. What have you us?" He's magnificent. He's regal. He's magisterial. Every single time in the 14, 15 books that he's appeared in, I'm just doing my best José Ferrer impression.
CH: That is brilliant. I'm going to listen in a totally different way now.
SB: But the character that I feel most connected to is Duke Leto, Paul Atreides' father. Because really, whether he was intended to be or not in the originals, in all of the prequels, he is Frank Herbert, which would make Paul, Brian. I think it might have been different from Frank's perspective. But since [Brian and Kevin] took over the work, this most recent trilogy that they've been working on, The Caladan Trilogy, I'm struck that there is so much more time spent between father and son. And I know that in many ways, that must be wish-fulfillment for Brian, because he had so little time with his [father]. Every time I voice that character, I get choked up, because I wish they had had more time together. So those are my three favorites.
CH: Those are great favorites. And I'm going to hear all of them differently now, the next time I listen. Thank you. By the way, I have a soft spot for the David Lynch film too. But as you were speaking, I realized that nobody has spent as much time performing Dune as you have. You've done all of the series, all of the time lines, you've watched these characters age. You've been there, 10,000 years ago and 10,000 years in the future when they got scattered. So, I'm just wondering, what have you observed about the Duniverse that you think isn't common knowledge?
SB: The Duniverse. First of all, I love that. I've never heard that before.
Well, if there's one thing I've learned from Dune, it's that the more things change, the more they stay the same. In a lot of the earlier books I noticed an effort to write certain characters from certain planets in a dialect or give them last names that were very Germanic or French or Irish. And it made sense to me. I was talking with Brian—what would happen once everybody gains the ability of space flight to the furthest reaches of the galaxy? Well, you would have American planets and then you would have Russian planets. And how do you think those two would interact? Wouldn't they interact with the same animosities that we have now between the two countries? The same thing with our allies. Granted, this is set 10,000, 20,000 years in the future, but Frank made certain to pepper the series with things that were current for him in the 1960s as he was writing this.
"If there's one thing I've learned from Dune, it's that the more things change, the more they stay the same."
The Bene Gesserit are so called because of his opinions on the Jesuits and how dangerous he felt their influence could be. He saw the ways that they were trying to control humanity. So now you have this sisterhood who is very clearly trying to do the same thing, even as far as genetic manipulation. He saw what was going on in the Arabic culture at the time, and so he wrote in the Zensunnis and the Zenshiites. It had changed a little by name, he added “Zen” to the front of it. And he made sure that the Fremen were descended from Arabic culture. And the issues going on in Dune—slavery, drug addiction, political power that's perhaps gone a little too far—it sounds an awful lot like Frank's time and like our own.
The thing about science fiction is, I realize that the more alien they try to make it, the more human it becomes. I mean, where does the term alien come from? We use it now in an extraterrestrial meaning, and yet it wasn't like that originally. We applied a word that means “other” to this idea of space aliens around the 1940s or '50s. But that's really all it is. How do we interact with the other? The whole reason that a science fiction author will talk about an alien culture is to show us how human we are. And, you know, how we might be able to bridge that gap with the other. So as I read every Dune novel, I just look for the ways that, that it's like me. Or-
CH: It is interesting, following up on your theme, that it's often the quote/unquote aliens who show us how to be good hosts.
SB: Yeah. Absolutely. I find myself fascinated with the story of Superman, this being from another planet with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men. And yet he shows us how good humanity is if we aspire to be greater. He's an alien, and yet he makes us better.
CH: So, I was going to ask you if there's something about speculative fiction that you think you can't get from any other genre, but I think you've just told me what makes speculative fiction special to you. Is speculative fiction your favorite to narrate?
SB: It is. Speculative fiction is probably my favorite to perform because it's my favorite to read. When I got into the audiobook industry, I found myself doing a lot of nonfiction. I found myself doing a lot of nautical thrillers like the Clive Cussler series. I found myself doing classics like What Makes Sammy Run? Yet, one day, I went into Dan Musselman's office. He was in charge of the Books on Tape studio at the time. He just retired about two weeks ago, broke my heart. That's one of the dearest men that I know and a staple of our industry. He was the guy who had always cast these books. And I went in, and I said, "Hey, just so you know, when I'm reading at home, when I have the time to read for pleasure, I'm always reading science fiction. So, if anything comes along, please keep me in mind." And, I swear, no more than two weeks went by before he said, "We want you to record Dune and Dune: The Butlerian Jihad." I literally leapt so high that my hand hit the ceiling.
The thing that speculative fiction gives us, I think, more so than any other type of fiction, if it is done well, then the person reading it won't even realize that while they're reading about aliens, they're actually reading about themselves. When I was a kid and I read The Chronicles of Narnia, it took me until Book 7 [The Last Battle] before I realized that this was a Christian allegory. I just thought it was fun. I love being surprised.
CH: I love hearing you say that, because I'm the history editor and my secret love is always speculative fiction. And I secretly think all the time that I'm just reading other history books that have failed to materialize yet. That's a wonderful story. And for listeners who are listening, remember the Books on Tape was unabridged. Scott, as you were speaking, it reminded me, I remember a lot of those nonfiction titles that you performed back in the day. You were, and are, the kind of narrator who never loses the arc, either the dramatic arc or the arc of the idea, preferably both together.
SB: Oh, thank you.
CH: So, you already mentioned the Bene Gesserit. But I ask all fellow Dune nerds this question: If they started ordaining guys, or if they were open to all genders, would you apply? Because I've been obsessed with Bene Gesserit since I first read that book.
SB: Boy. That's a tough question. Would I apply to the Bene Gesserit? I would do it if I could change them from within. I would love the training. I would love to have the ability to have such utter control over your own metabolism that you could turn poison into water. I mean, that would be extraordinary. But I have a feeling that by the time it came to give me the gom jabbar that I would die a hideous death, because my heart wasn't pure in the Bene Gesserit fashion, right?
Knowing as much as I do about the Bene Gesserit, having read every single page of their machinations, their schemes, and the horrific things that they've done to other people, I put them in the same category as Erasmus. They're doing awful things for the right reasons. But it would be pretty thrilling to have those abilities.
CH: I have one more question for you. Is there anything else you feel like sharing about the Duniverse with fellow fans?
SB: My Dune glossary is almost 25 volumes now. It's this Excel spreadsheet that has every single word and name and sentence spelled out phonetically, and cross-referenced. Whenever I add a new book, a new volume, whenever one comes out, I do those words. And I import it into the overall comprehensive Dune glossary. And I send it to the authors, Brian and Kevin. And one time, I think it was the first time Brian had seen this, he didn't realize how much work I was putting into it, which I do, of course, because I'm such a Dune fan. I was sitting in my car, outside the studio where I had to go in and record this next Dune book, and he said, "Do you do this on every book that we write?" And I said, "Yeah." He said, "Why?" I said, "Well, all these words are going to come up again at some point. And I need to make sure that I'm consistent." And he paused, and he said, "Scott, I just want to tell you that you have become a pillar of the Dune universe." I teared up, and I said, "Oh, my God, Brian, I feel like you just dubbed me with a sword."
I think they're wonderful curators of Frank Herbert's and Beverly Herbert's legacies. It's a privilege to be associated with it.
CH: That's a beautiful sentiment, sir. Thank you for sharing it. Thank you for being the pillar and building a space where so many fans have come to be entertained and comforted and stimulated and engaged.
SB: Thanks much.It's my pleasure and my privilege. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you.
CH: And listeners, you can get all the Dune novels, and also Brian Herbert's biography of Frank Herbert, Dreamer of Dune, on Audible now.
