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Kat Johnson: Hi, listeners. I'm Kat Johnson an editor at Audible, and I’m delighted to be speaking today with Yomi Adegoke, author of The List, one of the year's buzziest debut novels, which has already been picked up for a TV series by HBO, A24, and BBC. Yomi is an award-winning journalist who writes for The Guardian and British Vogue and is the co-author of the audiobook Slay in Your Lane and the anthology Slay in Your Lane Presents: Loud Black Girls.
We are so lucky to have her here, and The List is going to give us so much to talk about—I cannot wait to get into it. Thank you so much for being here, Yomi. Welcome.
Yomi Adegoke: Thanks so much for having me, Kat.
KJ: Congratulations on your incredible debut novel. The List is a provocative and propulsive story, with an amazing audio performance and a juicy premise. I would love if you could tell listeners in your own words what it's about.
YA: So I always say that The List is, first and foremost, a book about the internet. It follows an Instagram-famous couple, Ola and Michael, a few weeks before their wedding day. They are sort of, you know, #CoupleGoals. They're about to have a big, likely viral, wedding, when a month before the wedding, an anonymous list goes up on social media, accusing various different men of varying degrees of abuse—and Michael's name is on the list.
Ola, who has made her name as a feminist journalist, then has to decide whether she believes what he's been accused of, whether she doesn't, and whether she would like to proceed with the wedding. And Michael is simultaneously trying to clear his name. We actually don't know whether Michael has done what he's been accused of until the very last chapter. So yeah, the tagline is, it's about secrets, lies, and our lives online, which I think encapsulates it quite well.
KJ: I think that absolutely does. I think it's an amazing premise and also—incredible characters that feel so real.
YA: Thank you.
KJ: So I'm curious, how did you know that this premise was a book? And also, did the premise come first and then the characters kind of flowed from that? Or was it the other way around? Tell me about it.
YA: It took me a really long time to realize that this premise was a book. I actually originally envisaged it being nonfiction because, around 2017, various different anonymous lists were being disseminated around the internet, in various different industries. And myself, and most of the people I've known in different industries, have come across different lists. And I think my knee-jerk reaction was, okay, I felt like this is an important thing. This is a good thing, largely, because men are being held accountable in ways that, historically, they haven't.
I feel like I shouldn't have to qualify it but, just in case—men can be victims of and have been and are victims of abuses also. But I just thought that women—being able to sort of speak truth to power in this way, on this scale—after being let down by the legal system or police, it felt very important. As I said, it still does in many ways but, being from a journalistic background and also being from a legal background, I guess there was a kind of sense of unease, primarily because of the ease with which the internet and social media can be weaponized, regardless of what the intention of a movement is.
It's mentioned in the book—I grew up like Ola and Michael did, watching shows like Catfish and really being attuned to how easy it is for people to take advantage of anonymity online. So I wanted to do a long read, long fiction, that kind of grappled with the ethics of anonymous lists that were being disseminated on the internet. I think, in 2017, it still felt slightly fraught as a conversation, so I kind of put it on the back burner. And it wasn't until lockdown when, essentially, I'd exhausted all avenues in terms of recreational activity that I felt like, oh, I did have this idea, and I was interested in looking at this conversation. I felt that it would not necessarily be easier to tackle it through fiction, but ... maybe would be a different way of having a very difficult conversation. So yeah, during lockdown, I tackled it as a novel. And the rest is pretty much history. (laughs)
KJ: Wow. I mean, during lockdown, I got really into the show Columbo. So congratulations to you. I think that's incredible. I'm so glad that you did this as a novel, because I think the characters really bring this to life in a way that I think would be hard through nonfiction or through, you know, real people.
YA: I agree.
KJ: And I love that there are two perspectives—Michael and Ola—and you alternate perspectives, which works really well when you're reading it because I also read it. But in audio, it's heightened so much by these incredible narrators that you got, which are Sheila Atim and Arinzé Kene. I loved both of them—I thought they did an incredible job. I was wondering if you could share any details about their casting or what you think of their performance?
YA: I would love to. I think my publishers, actually, are really fed up with me constantly telling people that the audiobook is better than the book! I don't think you're supposed to say that. But the audiobook is better than the book. The audiobook is phenomenal! I think listening to it makes me feel like I didn't write it. Like, it's so immersive, and they're so brilliant.
So Sheila Atim is a friend. We share a mutual best friend, so I've known her for some time, and I've always thought she was just a phenomenal actress. But also, just a very down to earth and a cool person who I've had really interesting conversations with, and I always respected her craft. I had genuinely envisaged her voicing Ola for the audiobook, specifically, since I conceived of there being an audiobook. I always knew I wanted her.
I just remember telling our mutual best friend, "I always wanted Sheila to do this." I told her years ago, and I was like, "There's no way she's going to do it, because she's just too famous and important now, post The Woman King."
KJ: Yeah.
YA: I happened to bump into her at an event, and I was congratulating on her on everything and just mentioned in passing, almost as a joke—"You're not going to have time to do this because you've gotten so huge, but I did really want you to do the audiobook."
And she was like, "Oh, no. Yeah, no, I'll totally do that," and I was like, "That's really kind of you," you know, drinks flowing—we're at a party—and I just thought, I don't want to hold her to it. So I said to her, "You should probably read the book first." And she was like, "Nah, I'll just do it."
I remember sending her an email a couple of weeks later, when I had the finished manuscript, and I was like, "Hey, so I know you said you'd do it. I'm not sure if you actually will be able to because I know you're super busy." And she literally replied, "Why are you sending me this?" (laughs) "I told you I'd do it."
KJ: Like, caveating left and right.
YA: Literally. She was just, "It's done." And then I was thrilled because, as I said, I absolutely knew that she would just be brilliant for Ola.
And then, when it came to Michael, very specifically again, I had Arinzé Kene, who I'd watched in Misty, which I think came to the States now, as a play. I've seen it twice in the UK, because it was just absolutely brilliant. I'd always really respected him and just felt like there were very subtle class differences between Ola and Michael. Ola's supposed to be similar— working class in a city, London, second generation immigrant background. But she's gone to a really good university … Her accent's maybe slightly more pronounced.
And I watched Misty and had seen how brilliantly Arinzé had done the accents around a very particular kind of inner-city, working-class Afro-Caribbean dialect. And I just knew he was the one. But again, it was like, there's no way he's going to be able to do it. He's too busy! Then he was in New York—I think doing Misty—when we were casting. So we had other people try out, and I was just so dead set on Arinzé. And they were like, "Well, we can't get him because he's in America." And I was like, "Well, it actually needs to be Arinzé." (laughs)
KJ: Yeah!
YA: I don't know how it managed to work, but somehow he just happened to come back in time, because we were still scrambling. We went over schedule, and we're still scrambling, looking for an actor. And then, his agent finally got back and was like, "Actually, he's going to be in the country."
They were my absolute top two, from about three years ago. So yeah, I could not be happier. And they're phenomenal.
KJ: They're so good. And they have so much to do; there are so many accents.
YA: Yes.
KJ: I mean, you have this incredible story, obviously set in London. The main characters are of Nigerian and Ghanaian descent. And then we have—you know, their friends are all so hip. And then we've got Ola's awful boss, Frankie, and then there's Lewis Hale, who's this Afro-Caribbean footballer. It was so delightful to hear them take on all these accents. How important for you was it to get all these voices captured when you were writing it? And then to hear it performed?
YA: It was so crucial. I think that's one of the reasons that I was being such a diva when it came to the casting, specifically of Michael, because it's such a specific dialect. And I remember, there was a point, where we were still backing and forthing on actors ... someone from the team just sort of said, "Look, the average person listening to this is not from South London and not from where Ola lives. They're not from North London, where Michael lives. They're not going to notice these intricacies." And I was like, "But I will."
KJ: But you will
YA: I'm so hell-bent on it. But yeah, I think when writing the dialogue, I didn't realize how true-to-life [it was]. I was just writing what I know, and it made me realize how often Black authors are expected to tone down the language and slang and make it slightly more accessible and make it less specific to whatever cultural area they're speaking to.
But I just wrote what I know. And I wrote the dialect in terms of how people I know speak. So I didn't realize how specific it was until later on in the process. I realized, “Wow, the dialect is so specific!” And I'm so glad that it's been done in this way, because I think it really does feel almost like ... not a time capsule, but it feels very, very accurate. So I'm very happy it's been done the way it has.
KJ: Oh, it's so good. I mean, for me, obviously I can't nail down the accuracy, especially of these British accents that are so specific, but it's like eavesdropping on a whole world. They both were incredible. One of the things I really love about the book was—and there's so many things to talk about—but you say it's a book about the internet, which I totally agree, and I love how you counteract the distinction between the real world and the internet, with how larger-than-life the latter can feel. And then, in one of the centerpiece scenes of the novel, these two worlds finally collide. And it's very explosive. I'm curious about what you wanted to say about the difference between online life and real life?
YA: Definitely. Having written about race and racism and feminism pretty much all of my career as a journalist, which is spanning more than 10 years now—I remember, as many Black female journalists, specifically, will, the time when writing about race wasn't as mainstream as it is now, especially in the UK. We have always been slightly more behind in terms of our racial discourse. So you know, I'd be writing about things such as cultural appropriation, microaggressions, intersectionality, and would experience real vitriol and trolling and difficulty navigating online. And then. trying to explain that to somebody who was less chronically online than I was because of work. It was always kind of like, "Oh, just ignore them ... It's just the internet."
And the real-life impact of the ramifications of fallout on social media was very much minimized. I think we are increasingly starting to reckon with the online world as its own world, that has real, serious effects on the world that we live in. But even then, we still will write off somebody experiencing something online as, "Oh, just go outside. Touch grass." Like, you know, it's all fine.
KJ: Sure.
YA: And I think I really wanted it to be a commentary, just on the real-life fallout, because—I've used the phrase a lot—I feel like we're sleepwalking into a crisis. I feel like, certainly in the UK, the legal system isn't able to keep up with the pace at which social media and the internet are evolving.
So, you see the kind of difficulties with social media. in particular, when Michael was trying to navigate finding himself on the list and wanting to speak to someone, face to face, about what's going on. And he tries to call Twitter (you know, X, formerly known as Twitter), and there is no helpline. There's no one to speak to. And I think that wall that we have, in terms of being able to communicate with anyone at the top of a social media platform … The difficulties in terms of knowing whether, if something goes wrong online, is it a civil matter? Is it a police matter? It's all just very gray, at the moment, and difficult to navigate.
I wanted to just show the reality of how much the internet affects our everyday lives. And how, I think, kind of pooh-poohing it or just rubbishing the conversation of those real-life impacts—“Oh, it's just the internet,” and all that kind of thing—it feels really old school. Once upon a time, we could have said that, but we are in 2023, like, we've got multiple generations [who] have gone online now, and we have to kind of really reckon with the reality of that. It's probably one of the biggest inventions that's had the most seismic effects in the 21st century, and we have to just be weird about that now, I think.
KJ: Right. Right. And it's interesting, what you say about Michael dealing with sort of the legal elements of this crisis because, in a lot of ways, The List, to me, feels like a thriller. The way you've got the two POVs and ... there's a mystery around who submitted Michael to the list and did Michael do these things?
No spoilers, but there's a great twist at the end. As I was listening, I was like, there's not really a crime, or is there a crime? You know, Michael was accused of harassment, but we don't really know what kind of harassment. Assault, yes, but we don't really know what. And then, when he tries to go to the police, it's like, "What's the crime here? Nothing can really be proven." Do you think of it as a thriller?
YA: I don't think I did originally, but it's been so interesting seeing how it's been responded to. I think, quite early on in the conversation, people were like, "Oh, this is clearly a thriller." And I was like, "Oh, really?" And I was like, "Actually, yeah, maybe it is.”
KJ: Right. (laughs)
“I like a page turner, but I think I needed permission to write something that was fun and difficult but light and nuanced, but also accessible.”
YA: I've done all these crime panels, and I've been in crime write-ups, and I'm very much embracing it a bit. Originally, when I was first writing … I've said many times that I was quite conscious of being taken “seriously.” I wanted to be a serious female author, and I didn't want to be written off as having written a beach read or written something that was frivolous in some way. Not that I think beach reads are frivolous, but I do think people take entertaining people for granted. It's actually really hard. You have to write something that makes people care and be invested.
I think when it comes to women, it's so easy for what we write to be relegated and pigeonholed into being something like chick lit or something. So I wanted to write something that was ... I did borderline boring because I was like, if people enjoy this and think it's commercial—and commercial is the dirty word in publishing—and I felt like, “Oh, no, to be taken seriously, I have to write something that's completely impenetrable and unenjoyable, and then it's a serious book.”
I think I was really committed to not writing something propulsive in any way. It had no humor before. And it took a really long time. Actually, it took, funny enough, me interviewing Kiley Reid—
KJ: Oh, she's so good.
YA: She's phenomenal. She's absolutely excellent. And I remember reading Such a Fun Age, which was a real inspiration in terms of the dual perspective and writing something that touched on serious issues but was enjoyable. I interviewed her during her UK press tour, and I'd spoken to her about the fact that she'd been long-listed for the Booker. I was like, "This is an enjoyable book; it's amazing that something that's humorous and fun and accessible has been nominated and long-listed.” And she sort of said, "Look, not everybody has to write a book that's impenetrable and unenjoyable for it to be taken seriously."
I think that's when I kind of leant more into the thriller elements and made it more propulsive. Originally, the timeline for their wedding wasn't for like a year or something, and there wasn't the countdown. I like a page turner, but I think I needed permission to write something that was fun and difficult but light and nuanced, but also accessible. Yeah, that's when I think it became slightly more like a thriller, which I really do think is an accurate description now.
KJ: Yeah. I love that. Well, my humble opinion is that genre fiction is incredible. And it feels old-fashioned to not love it.
YA: I agree.
KJ: I also think genre conventions are made to be broken, so I think you've written something that's kind of a mash-up, and I think that's amazing. Back to chatting about online discourse. More extreme views tend to rule the discussion when it comes to discourse, especially under the cloak of anonymity that we're talking about with The List.
With Ola, she works at Womxxxn ... I love that name. (laughs) That's the fictional online publication that she writes for. She’s fully in this online world, which I think is really brilliant because it raises the stakes so much with how she needs to respond to these accusations against Michael. Your background is pretty similar, I'd say, professionally to Ola's.
YA: Yeah.
KJ: I'm curious. How much of your own background and judgment were you drawing on as you thought about what Ola was going to do and how she might respond?
“Another reason why it was important for me to write this was because I thought for a long time that the conversations around so-called "cancel culture" … have very much been commandeered by the wrong people. It's very rarely progressive voices that you get in these spaces …The conversations are usually left to the more extreme, more divisive voices.”
YA: I definitely thought it was important because, as you mentioned, it really is more extreme voices that are kind of elevated in any discussion. Not to go on a tangent immediately, but I think another reason why it was important for me to write this was because I thought for a long time that the conversations around so-called "cancel culture," and things like that, have very much been commandeered by the wrong people. It's very rarely progressive voices that you get in these spaces, taking a critical lens on something like cancel culture.
The conversations are usually left to the more extreme, more divisive voices, so I wanted Ola to be somebody that, hopefully, most readers would identify with. Someone whose heart is in the right place. Someone who is a feminist. Someone who, in an alternate universe, would've been leading the charge in terms of the cancellation of men on that list. I wanted her to be someone who ... A: it raised the stakes [and] B: it would make, hopefully, a lot of people question their own positions and judgment when it comes to something like this.
So I thought, “Okay, I am somebody who is a feminist. I'm somebody whose heart is very much in the right place but is, simultaneously, trying to have a conversation that isn't always easy. And I felt like, when it came to Ola, it's interesting. We both are Nigerian women who are feminists and have worked at women's publications. But I'm always saying that, had the book focused on me, it would've probably been quite boring and probably a lot shorter, because, by virtue of having a legal background and by virtue of being someone who has worked as a journalist in an actual news [room], Channel 4 News, where we've got something called Ofcom regulation, which means that, we have to be far slower and more guided in terms of write-ups about anything.
KJ: Yeah.
I think, as much as there are definitely parallels in terms of me and Ola, I feel like the stakes were slightly different for her. Not that the stakes wouldn't be high for me, but I think I have always been quite a critical thinker. I'm quite slow to any conclusion. I'm always saying I'm a habitual fence sitter; I'm someone who waits for all the facts and information to drop. Whereas I think I had to make Ola slightly more reactive and slightly more—just, I think the stakes were slightly different. Because, whilst I am a feminist, I wouldn't say it's as imbued with my brand as someone like Ola, where that's her whole thing.
Her being that link to Michael is even more extreme than I think your average feminist woman being linked to a man that's been accused of abuse, because it's her whole job, her whole online persona and brand. And I think also Ola's maybe slightly more online than me. I wouldn't say I'm not very online, but it's different. I feel like I am probably quite contradictory online, whereas I think Ola's got a very strong feminist brand that is very easy to undermine if she steps afoul of line, like, even once.
KJ: Right. It seems like maybe you learned some of the lessons that Ola probably learns from this experience. I really want to talk about Michael too. What was it like for you to get into his mindset? Because I felt like maybe that character will drive a lot of people crazy, but for me, I really felt for him as he was reckoning with his love for Ola, his fear of being like his father. And he was really wondering, "What did I do?" How did you get into his head? And what was it like actually sitting down and working out who he was [and] how he was going to respond to this?
YA: It was really fascinating, actually ... I'm very much a girl's girl. I grew up with two sisters, who I'm incredibly close to, and have a predominantly female friendship group. So getting into the mindset of Michael was a challenge, but one I thought I was up for because I don't know that many men, but I feel like I know men, if that makes sense. The men I know, I know very, very well. So I felt confident I'd get into that head space, but it was so different because I am so, like— I love women. I love feminine energy, and I have primarily female friends. So that was a challenge.
KJ: Oh yeah?
"If I really identified with parts of a character, often it was Michael, because I was writing things that I think were quite deep with him and things that I had some experience with."
YA: Funny enough, initially the book was just written from Ola's perspective. It was just following her, because I was really interested in the way we perceive women who are connected to men who are accused of abuse. So whether that be as a mother or a sister or a friend or a partner, I think there's often an assumption of complicity or, like, "She must've known," or something like that.
So I just wanted it to be from Ola's perspective, to give visibility to what it is to be a woman attached to a man with that reputation and with those allegations against him.
KJ: Mmm-hmm.
And then something felt like it was missing. That's how Michael kind of came to the fore. Then, when I was writing Michael, I could have very easily written him as a flawless, really straightforward—I know he's infuriating and insufferable. I could've written him as just this baby angel that we all felt really sorry for, and it was very clear-cut that he was innocent and everything was just so straightforward. Like, how could we possibly not feel for him?
But I kind of felt like, I want to write Michael really complicated so that, whatever the outcome is—whether he's guilty or not—we question whether he deserves what's happening to him, because I felt like that was an important question ... Even if someone is incredibly problematic—and it may be, in some ways, toxic—if they aren't guilty of what they've been accused of, do they deserve what Michael goes through in the book?
So yeah, it was definitely a challenge, but I really enjoyed it, and I think I learned a lot, especially writing his friends. Having to go to my male friends and ask them, gosh, the myriad of things about male friendship and dynamics—I learned a lot in the process. But yeah, it was a difficult one. In some ways, I feel like—because he talks about mental health and he's going through his struggles and I've been quite vocal about mental health before—if I really identified with parts of a character, often it was Michael, because I was writing things that I think were quite deep with him and things that I had some experience with. So yeah, it was a journey with him, for sure. (laughs)
KJ: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So good. The friends are so interesting as well, and there's so much to unpack. When we're done talking (laughs), I'm going to ask you some spoiler-related questions.
YA: Oh, great!
KJ: So earlier this year, it was announced that The List had been picked up for development as a TV series by A24, HBO, and BBC, which I feel like it's not even possible to name a better trio of production companies. So it was safe to say, it's in great hands.
YA: Yes. (laughs)
KJ: Can you share any details with us about the show?
YA: I actually can't, as of now. But I'm incredibly excited, because I think so much has happened since that deal was struck, which is just the most ludicrous deal ever. It's just so cartoonish for it to be A24 and HBO and BBC. It's like, even when I say it, I feel like I'm making it up. So I'm incredibly excited about it.
KJ: I can't wait to hear more about that. This is a separate question—I'm curious if you'd be able to share with us one or two of your favorite books that came out this year.
YA: I actually normally do listen to quite a few audiobooks, but I think, because I'm online so much, this is the one year I haven't. (laughs) But I did read Monica Heisey's Really Good, Actually, which was really good, actually.
KJ: Yeah.
YA: Not to make that joke, but I thought it was brilliant. I haven't listened to the audiobook, but I've heard fantastic things about the audiobook, and I think the audio narrator is renowned for doing brilliant audio work. And people really, really love her. And she was, apparently, excellent for the audiobook. So I'm looking forward to listening to that audiobook.
KJ: Oh, that's Julia Whelan. Yeah, she's a legend.
YA: Yes.
KJ: Anything is better with Julia Whelan. Except for The List. She wouldn't be right for The List, but in general. (laughs)
YA: Yeah! Only Sheila and Arinzé could have done The List. But I've heard fantastic things about her. And I'm trying to think what else I've read that would be out in the States. Um, just give me one second. I can go on my Audible and see if there's anything I actually listened to this year that wasn't my own book. Mm ... I'll have a look.
KJ: Oh, thank you. I love that you're a listener.
YA: Oh, no. I am. I absolutely love Audible. Because there was a whole period where I was just listening to—I think it was during lockdown—I used to listen to audiobooks because I was on the go and I was running a lot and it was just such a good way of multitasking. But I kind of went back to books this year, because I haven't been walking as much, essentially.
KJ: Yeah.
YA: But another book, and so sorry, it's not an audiobook, but again, I've heard fantastic things about the audio, is Yellowface. I’ve heard it’s claustrophobic in the audio, because it's right in your ear.
KJ: Oh, my God.
YA: As you can note, I read the audio reviews, because these are the things that are in my queue that I'm like, “Oh, I wanted to listen to it, but I ended up just reading it.” But I remember reading the audio reviews for Yellowface, which I read. And it was unhinged and really funny and brilliant. But I read the audio reviews, and they're like, it's even better because the insanity is, like, right in your ear. (laughs)
KJ: Yes. I can attest to that. It's 100 percent true. (laughs)
YA: The thing about me is I'm happy to read a book and then do the audio, so I'll probably give those two a listen in the near future.
KJ: Yeah. I think those are excellent choices. You're not going to go wrong with those, for sure. Thank you so much for that.
YA: You're welcome.
KJ: And then, my last question is—You just wrote your debut novel, so I hate to even ask you, but what's next? Is there anything you can share for us that you're working on next that you're excited about?
YA: Yes, so it was a two-book deal, much to my initial resistance. (laughs) I was incredibly grateful to be offered a two-book deal, but, that being said, I honestly was adamant I only had the one idea. Even this hadn't started out as fiction, so when my agent was floating the idea of two books, I was like, I don't know where I'm going to find another idea from, because I just had so much to say in The List and I kind of felt like, “Am I going to have that much to say about something else?”
But then, the reason she was able to kind of twist my arm is because I had this other idea, which was also going to be done as a long read and also is equally kind of contentious and controversial. I also put that in a drawer because I felt like, “Oh, this is maybe a bit too difficult to talk about right now.” And I thought maybe, again, it's worth me fictionalizing.
So I do have a second book that I'm kind of in the process of writing. I'm probably about three chapters in. I'm still very much building it. But I'm only saying, if I'm not canceled for The List, I'd be canceled for the second book because it's very much a thorny conversation. But I'm excited about it. I think it's an interesting one. And I can't really say more than that, but, yeah, I think it will be ... It's definitely a conversation starter.
KJ: Yay. Oh, great. Well, I will listen to that one too. Well, it was such a pleasure having you here today.
YA: Oh, thank you.
KJ: And, listeners, The List by Yomi Adegoke, is available on Audible now.
