"Your Mama's Kitchen" transcript: Episode 36

Your Mama's Kitchen Episode 36: Lena Thwaite

Audible Originals presents Your Mama’s Kitchen, hosted by Michele Norris

COLD OPEN

Lena Waithe I think those scenes in the kitchen with myself and my mom, I love the ones where it just she and I in the kitchen gathering plates or cups or whatever, and having those private conversations. I think there's just a it brings a sense of comfort. And for some reason, a kitchen feels like a safe space.

MICHELE VO INTRO:

Welcome to Your Mama's Kitchen, the podcast that explores how the kitchens we grew up in as kids shape who we become as adults. I'm Michele Norris….

And I’ve got quite a treat for you today because we are joined by actor, comedian, producer, publisher and screenwriter Lena Waithe. She’s made quite a name for herself in Hollywood with her cutting edge creativity and a sharp sense of humor. She wrote and produced some notable shows like Bones and Dear White People, but many people first saw her on our screen playing the straight-faced best friend Denise on the multiple award-winning Netflix show Master of None. She even made history on that show, becoming the first black woman to win an Emmy for Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series… this was for her work on the show’s Thanksgiving episode, that was loosely based on her real-life experience coming out to her mom. We dig into that in this episode.

Recently, she’s been working on a show she created called The Chi. It’s like a coming-of-age drama mixed in with a gritty urban operetta sprinkled with both pathos and laughter and, as the name suggests, it’s based in her hometown of Chicago. The Chi is coming back for its seventh season on Showtime and Paramount Plus.

In this episode, we hear about Lena’s Chicago story: What it was like growing up in the Southside, living in her grandma’s house with her mom and her sister… and how watching stories fueled her own dream of becoming a writer, how watching the OJ trial and the verdict, fostered her understanding of the complexities of race… How she turned her own coming out story into a groundbreaking Hollywood hit, and why she will defend her assertion that chicken and dumplings is the BEST comfort food of ALL time. Once you listen to this episode, you might just agree. That’s all that’s coming up.

ACT 1

Michele Norris Lena, so glad you're with us.

Lena Waithe So happy to be with you.

Michele Norris I feel like I had to hound you to get you, to get you to say yes. Because originally you said. I don't know about my mama's kitchen. We didn't cook that much.

Lena Waithe That's the only reason why I said that. It was not because I, of course I want to talk to you. I just want to make sure.

Michele Norris Well, then, has that happened? Something had to have happened in that kitchen because, you know, everybody has a kitchen and you got to eat. This is true. So tell me what you can about your mama's kitchen, which was also your grandmama's kitchen because you grew up in a generational household, correct?

Lena Waithe Yeah, that's the thing. It was it technically was my grandmother's home and her kitchen. But I think, like any grandmother, this house, her house is the family's house. So. And, you know, her daughter moved back in with her, with her two daughters. And so it was our house. It did. I never felt like I was staying in a home that wasn't my own, which I think is a true testament to grandma's homes all over the world. But I think that might be why my mom didn't cook in that kitchen a ton. Because it was technically her mother's kitchen. But also, my mom just wasn't super into cooking. It just wasn't her jam. And for my grandmother, because she was older, she enjoyed cooking. But not every night. Like, she was just sort of, she was a mover and shaker. But she's from Arkansas, so she knows how to cook. And she would cook. That's why I gave you the chicken and dumplings, which I don't even have a recipe for, because like a southern grandmother, she didn't have it written down. But when she did cook, it was amazing. It was this great treat because her cooking was so just by bad taste, by feel, by energy. And we were, you know, my mom was a single mom. And so we did a lot of fast food and being in Chicago, there was plenty of it. And so that was a big thing of like, on Fridays or like Thursdays, we'd have like pizza on this day, we'd have like little barbecue spot. On this day we'd go to this so we would eat in the kitchen, but it would oftentimes be food that we would get from places. And my grandmother also liked, like having food delivered or eating out. She loved going to the Olive garden. She loved going to this Mexican spot called Pepe's, because I think a part of her was like, I shouldn't have to cook anymore.

Michele Norris She earned that.

Lena Waithe Yes, exactly. So it was a little bit like my grandmother not wanting to cook and my mom just being a different. She was a different generation, and was trying to keep it fast and move quickly. And so I think she was grateful for Subway and grateful for, you know, checkers, which was a burger spot, which I don't think exists anymore. My grandmother really love Burger King. Like we were awesome. Leo, what can we quickly grab? That's good. She also, my grandmother, was a perfect audience for commercials for, like, the Red lobster commercials, the Olive garden commercials, the Chili's commercials, whatever they were advertising. She was like, we gotta go. We gotta go do the super salad. We gotta go do this. We gotta do they having a special here. So.

Michele Norris And was she taking advantage of that senior discount.

Lena Waithe Yes of course that's what I'm saying. That's I was like, yo, Michele, I want to talk to you. But like not we were it was about what are we ordering? You know what I'm saying? But but I think it's a big reason why I'm not a a big cook, like, I don't I it's something that wasn't really passed down. But I could do it. There's a little things I can do in the kitchen. It is one of those things that I wish I could do, which is partly, I think, for Marcus Graham Boomerang, you know, the fantasy. Wishing I could make, you know, a lady a really fly meal. That's my bullshit.

Michele Norris But there's still time for that. You can figure that out.

Lena Waithe Okay. Yeah. I mean, we'll see how cool I'm cool with chefs I love chefs. To me I'm cool with Melissa Kane. Like I watch Top Chef. I used to watch cooking shows all the time as a kid too. And I think that was always desire to want to do it. But it's a certain kind of person. It takes patience, it takes time management. It takes, you know, it takes a lot of things to be good at cooking in the kitchen.

Michele Norris And you have to want to clean up also.

Lena Waithe Oh that is something I really don’t want to do.

Michele Norris And if you’re going to cook, you have to, you know, and that's probably why your grandma was like, I'm done with this.

Lena Waithe Exactly.

Michele Norris Was she getting? Was there any Harold's chicken in there?

Lena Waithe There was. I mean, but we weren't like, huge on that. We weren't. We were like, there's this place called Lim's,

Michele Norris Limb's barbecue.

Lena Waithe Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was a big spot we really loved. And we really love Pepe's Mexican spot. Which is just like I always say, if Black people make Mexican food, that's how it would taste.

Michele Norris OK, now I am intrigued.

Lena Waithe Yo. It's like, it's my shit. Like when I go to Chicago, it's like it's that. But also we used to do, like White Castle. We used to do like Checkers. That was what we were about. That's why I was just like, you going to get the real today. You got to learn all about my diet when I was coming up.

Michele Norris But you ate in the kitchen, so paint me a picture if you went to your Chicago neighborhood. Southside. Westside.

Lena Waithe Southside.

Michele Norris Southside. Go to the Southside. Paint me a picture of the house you walk in the house you go in the kitchen. What's it look like?

Lena Waithe Okay, so this is an old school house where, you know, have the awning has, like a letter on it for the last name. Yeah. So that was a so there's a big H for Hall, which is a double name. My grandmother's maiden name is Hall, and she married a Hall. So I was to tell people like, no, it's not that kind of situation, not, you know, kissin cousins, but it's just it was just one of those things. So, Hall is very much like we love that last name for a lot of reasons. So there was always a H on the awning, when you come up and it's just like this picturesque home, you know, there was a beautiful lawn in front. There's a backyard, and the kitchen had these, like, green and white tile like. So it's like an old house. I always think so. And then also those, those sort of, they're not like metal, but bronze things you hang on the wall there, like there's one's a fish there.

Michele Norris Oh they’re like gelatin molds.

Lena Waithe Yeah, exactly. But we never used them for that. They just hung on the walls. They were like little there for decoration. Does she never use them for what they were supposed to be used for? And more like just decoration? Obviously. An old clock on the wall. There was a small TV in the corner, a circular table with four chairs around it, really big chairs. And it was a big freezer, like just literally just to hold meats and stuff, because my grandma would go to Moo and Oink, which is, it's the big spot in Chicago.

Michele Norris Oh my gosh I hadn’t thought about Moo and Oink in a long time.

Lena Waithe Come on, Moo and Oink. I think she would go there and get all kind of like meat in the stuff like that and put it in this big freezer because. Because we have like a fridge and you have a freezer and that's, that's how I, you know, it's, its a black household up. You got a freezer full of meat in the kitchen as well as the fridge. An old, old stove. You know, I think she eventually replaced that stove, but, like. Yeah, she had to, because it was an old stove. It was lost. It was green, light green green green green harvest.

Michele Norris Everything was like, harvest gold and avocado green.

Lena Waithe Yeah. And like, creams. But it was kind of like yellow because it was like old, like. So I was like, you knew at one point it was maybe white, but now it's sort of this sort of like yellow color because of just all the grease and time and whatnot. And, and then we of course, we had a, we had a microwave in there as well because, you know, you go heat up some leftovers in that house if you need to. And, and. Yeah. And it was just like it really was a great kitchen like, there's and there is a picture of me too. I'll try to take a picture of it for you. Like of me. Like sitting in one of the chairs as a young kid in like a kid chair. So I can obviously sit up and reach the table, and my mom putting a bib around my neck. So it's, it really was this great, homey type of kitchen. And that's what I it was this hallway from the kitchen to my grandmother's bedroom that she would just, like, walk between. It was like her bedroom to like, watched her stories and then in the kitchen to grab something out of the fridge.

Michele Norris I can't believe you just said stories.

Lena Waithe That's, come on.

Michele Norris That's for people who don't understand. Some people call them soap operas.

Lena Waithe Nah. Stories.

Michele Norris But in the community, everybody call them stories. And I never know where that came from.

Lena Waithe I don't know either. What is that? Where does that begin? I wish I knew, I wish I knew where that started.

Michele Norris They're talking Days of our Lives and All My Kids, All My Children.

Lena Waithe All My Kids, I prefer All My Kids. That's right. Yeah. That's the thing. It was cool growing up in a, I call it an old school house, meaning a house that hadn't been redecorated since the 70s. And but that felt very normal to me and a probably a very interesting, mind game for my mom, because that's the house she grew up in. And so for her, it probably felt very, you know, I don't know if nostalgic is the word, but it probably felt like she was living in sort of a time warp, in a way. And then for my sister and I, it was like, oh, this is OK. This is our house. This is the crib. So it's a very interesting energy.

Michele Norris So you weren't cooking a lot in that kitchen, but you were eating in the kitchen. We all know that kitchens are a place where a lot of things happen. So for sure. Was that the place where you had the big family discussions? Was that the place where people argued? Is that the place where you played cards or other kinds of games? What else happened in your kitchen that shaped who you are today?

Lena Waithe Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting because my grandma. Mother was very much, you know, that neighborhood was like a community. So they had block club meetings. A lot of people know about that. But like, your block and you guys gather and talk about what's going on, that kind of stuff. And she would be the whole sometimes they would take turns, you know. But I remember when our home was the spot of the block club meeting. She also was a big poker player. So poker nights and stuff would happen a lot at the house but that's what happened in the dining room. Not so much the kitchen. But what was great about the kitchen was I do remember because a lot of conversations would happen in my grandmother's bedroom, which was like, definitely a hub for sure, which is kind of funny. Like she we say in her bed, it I would just be kind of hanging around. Did not feel weird at all. I just felt very natural. But, in the kitchen, I remember when the OJ Simpson trial happened. I'm in there with my mom, my grandmother and my aunt, my mom's sister. And so that really took up a lot of conversation in our home.

Michele Norris Were they watching the trial? Day after day after day?

Lena Waithe Are you kidding? My grandmother, like, I just remember coming home from school every day and it was just on. And it was just it was for my grandmother. It was a really big thing. It was a big thing. Hence why I touch on it in the Thanksgiving episode. Well, one obviously, because we're going back in time and we're, we're dealing with that and of course are sitting around Thanksgiving table, dinner table. But obviously I remember it very vividly, the conversations that were happening between the black women in my house. And of course, my aunt would come over a lot. And so that would be the huddle would be my grandmother and her two grown daughters, talking and then me being late, like this young sitting at the table, just ear hustling and not understanding a lot of what's being said, but can't remember what was being said. And I just remember it being a real big topic with them and just learning so much about the dynamics of, you know, interracial dating and like what that was and what that meant. And obviously, my grandmother being from the South and now me really understanding the significance of that. Because, you know, I just only see my grandmother in Chicago. I never even been to the South and where she was from. So and she moved to Chicago when she was 17. So for her, I think her lens was very much, I want a win this time.

Michele Norris It's interesting you say that because O.J. Simpson just died.

Lena Waithe Yes, yes. Yeah.

Michele Norris In the spring.

Lena Waithe Really? Yeah.

Michele Norris And it dredged up a whole lot of stuff. And also this. Something that is now become accepted as fact that Black America was supporting O.J. Simpson. And I think that there may be a misread of that situation and that were Black people always supporting OJ Simpson, or was it that the criminal justice system itself was on trial?

Lena Waithe Right. Right, yes. Now stepping back from it, and I mean, and also, I really loved that documentary that Ezra did so beautifully. Things like The Run of His Life. I really don't want to get the title wrong, but that's what I think the art of documentary is supposed to do is to give us perspective, but also to give us the story from every single side. I think it helps me to understand my grandmother and my mom and my aunt, better. And I really have empathy for where they must have been at that time. I can't imagine being a grown person at that time, you know? I mean, even, but I remember being a kid in school and my teacher stopped class to play the verdict.

Michele Norris Really?

Lena Waithe Yeah. Yeah.

Michele Norris Like class stopped and you were all able to watch the verdict?

Lena Waithe No, we didn't watch it. She, it was on… I mean, it was, so she…

Michele Norris Left. She went to go watch it.

Lena Waithe No, no. We were in the class, I, by the way, this was just our particular class. Mrs. Smith, I'll never forget. Like, so I don't know what's going on in the rest of the school, but it was radio she had on the radio, and, and she had been following it, black woman and my teacher and, and played it in the class. And it was, I would never forget we were so young. I think I was like, was on the sixth grade or seventh grade. And we the word acquitted meant that day. Because we were like, what does acquitted mean?

Michele Norris And how did that class react…

Lena Waithe Oh, yeah. Because it was a racially diverse school shoot, middle school in Evanston. And so there were some Black kids, and it was the white kids. And it was so I mean, if you could have had a camera on us, like, talk about how kids are so affected by their household. The Black kids cheered and the white kids were quiet.

Michele Norris This is after your family had moved to Evanston. So you were attending a diverse school?

Lena Waithe Yeah. Yep yep, yep.

Michele Norris And there was a division right down the line.

Lena Waithe Oh, yeah.

Michele Norris In the classroom? Yeah, it was America.

Lena Waithe That was just so crazy because, like, being a kid in that moment and obviously looking back at it, I mean, it's just such a part of our history and such a lesson for all of us. But I just those are core memories for me.

ACT 2 + MIDROLL

Michele Norris You mentioned the Thanksgiving episode. It was on Master of None. And you won an Emmy for Outstanding Writing in a Comedy Series in 2017 for that. And it was based on your experience of, a friendship that you had and over a period of time from moving from, I guess, middle school into adulthood. Coming out to your mom.

Lena Waithe Yeah.

Michele Norris First to your friend, then to yourself, then to your mom.

Lena Waithe Yes.

Michele Norris And we got to see your kitchen in that episode because so much of it happens. Angela Bassett plays your mother.

Lena Waithe Yes. Beautifully.

Michele Norris In a beautifully taciturn way.

Lena Waithe She did a good job.

Michele Norris Very few people can talk through their teeth.

Lena Waithe OK.

Michele Norris In the way that Angela Bassett, and so we got to see the kitchen. Why did you decide to frame that episode in the kitchen?

Lena Waithe You know, I think we knew we wanted to tell the story over time, because in talking about it to Aziz and the writers, I was say, I said, look, this is a process. This is. Yes, it's a conversation that takes place, but it's a conversation that's a long time coming. And so I really, we really wanted to show the evolution, a person preparing to come out, to their parent in my case. And so and honestly, it was Aziz's brother, a niece who was like, what if we, you know, frame it around Thanksgiving. And so every Thanksgiving we keep landing. And I was like, oh, that's really great. And I was like, I like that idea. Because for us to be for it to be centered around food, around, you know, tradition, around family, and it just really worked. And also we were, yes, my grandmother was a host of many Thanksgivings, as you can imagine, because she's she's got the house, you know, and, and people just come and so we didn't play that part of it because our house was definitely a little more crowded than what we showed on the Thanksgiving episode, because that was enough. All those people at that table trying to not laugh and get all the different lines. But it was important to show how disarming a dinner table can be and how comfortable one can be when you're eating and sometimes drinking. Yeah, I wasn't drinking, but my aunt and mom and grandmother were. And so it you're a little bit more relaxed. And so I think those scenes in the kitchen with myself and my mom, I love the ones where it just she and I in the kitchen gathering plates or cups or whatever, and having those private conversations. I think there's just a it brings a sense of comfort. And for some reason, a kitchen feels like a safe space. And so that's why I immediately when I thought about Thanksgiving and just the cooking of it all in the preparing and the sitting around, it just opened it up for, for myself to have these conversations that you just ordinarily don't have if you're sitting, you know, in the living room for some reason.

Michele Norris I love the aunt, I must say.

Lena Waithe Oh, yes, Kim Whitley. Big love.

Michele Norris Yeah. I loved her character. I've watched that episode. And I feel as I've watched it over time. And because I have listened to my own kids in a similar situation, I was wondering if you were writing it in some way for your mother.

Lena Waithe It's interesting because people when I, when I talk about it, people ask, did you talk to your mom before you went into it to write?

Michele Norris Did you?

Lena Waithe I did not, I did not. And I think the reason why I didn't is because I didn't want her memory to. To mix with mine. So it was important that I told this story from. Yes my point of view. But I never wanted to cheapen her character or her, not just her character who she was or she is because I think honestly I didn't even realize it then, but I was really writing it for myself. And, and it was very internal. I was going back into memories obviously as they're coming up now. I thought, oh, do I have it all? Like I was going into those that kitchen that time and those moments of like me watching music videos of a guy who's singing, but I'm looking at the women in the back, you know, and I just really went back into my own memory. But I really was clear what I learned, what I know about writing is that both people in the scene, if you're talking about two people in a scene, that can be more people, you know, obviously there's multiple people and scenes and things given. But for my mom and I, I said, we both have to be right. Always. Because that's the only way this will feel human. And I think sometimes people want their opinion or what they think. But their point of view to ring louder. And I knew because obviously I had to write, you know, Katherine's dialog, my mom's dialog. So I had to step. It sounds crazy, but I have to step into her shoes to write her dialog.

Michele Norris Which is a hard thing to do as a daughter. Yeah. Leather shoes.

Lena Waithe Oh, yeah. It's hard, but I was able to. As Pollyanna as it sounds, you can't have a true understanding of someone until you've had to speak on their behalf. And by the way, I'm pulling from what she was actually saying to me in that conversation, like, make no mistake, I'm not like making things up. But when she said, I don't want life to be harder for you. Obviously, I heard that at some point, you know, when we were talking to the real version of it and then trying to write it and they acted out for some reason, I heard it clearer when I'm sitting in a hotel room in London writing that. Then when I heard it the first time.

Michele Norris So when you heard it the first time, did it feel judgmental when you heard it? As a writer, coming out of Katherine, the character that you were creating? Did it sound more protective?

Lena Waithe The first time around. I wasn't able to hear it. It didn't sound judgmental. It just sort of. I was being dismissive of it, because there's a part of me that feels like life is hard anyway. What does it mean? Being straight? Going to make my life much easier. That was me at the time, maybe being defensive or frustrated. So I wasn't really listening. And I think because I was also going back into my memory, I always thought I told Izzy's was like, my mom isn't like super religious, but she does care about keeping up with the Joneses. And that's a religion in its own, of its own. And so when I wrote into the action law, this is why, as ambassador so great, I said, like after I say it out loud, because I did come out in a restaurant, I came out in a diner. I want to be in a public place. I was so scared. So me saying that. I, I said. She looks around to see who's heard. If anybody heard.

Michele Norris And she does this and she does do that.

Lena Waithe She does it.

Michele Norris She kinda sits back and looks.

Lena Waithe Yeah. And she's so great. Like she really. And I think that's such a it's a quiet moment of story because in that moment she cares more about did anybody here than she does. Like, oh let me connect here now of course now we buy that back at the end of the episode where she really looks our daughter in the eye and, like, takes her hand and pulls her in close. Because again, I want to show this is a journey. This takes time. And so I think even for me, though, the person coming out, it also takes time to get to a place of not judging those that don't want to accept you right away. And that's why I think me having to be a writer is like, we don't. I can't judge any of these characters or that will show up in the writing. And I want it to be good. And there's a reason why you care about you evil for a quote unquote villain in a dark Knight, you know, rise like there's a reason why Heath ledger is such a it's such a beautiful performance, even though he's the villain. And I think as a writer, you have to say, hey, hold on, how did this person come to be? And so I always had to remind myself that my mom was born in 1953. I was born in 1984. So those are two completely different eras. So I can't expect my mom now. Of course, I'm talking to you from as an adult and, you know, get ready. Turn 40 now. I might, but I can't expect my mom to be where I am with it. And I think that was something I just didn't have the emotional intelligence to say to myself at the time. And so I think that's why the relationship can be so fraught, because I'm just frustrated that like, just accept it, just be cool. So like. That was me at the time. And now that's why when I was writing it, I'm thinking to myself, oh man, I can't believe how much I expected from her. And that moment, I didn't have a lot of empathy. I didn't have a lot of compassion. I didn't have a lot of patience. And I only really discovered that and having to sit down and retell it and, and so it really ended up being a healing thing for me. And I was able to understand my mom better because I had to, to write dialog on her behalf and not make her seem like a villain, to make myself the hero that wouldn't have done anything for us.

Michele Norris Did you show it to her? Did she have a private screening of this with or without you before it aired?

Lena Waithe No, no.

Michele Norris On television.

Lena Waithe I'd never do that. That's that. No. I mean, these were shot at the people. He was like, so that's good. So what about because he was just really excited about it and, and that was the other thing

Michele Norris So she watched it with the rest of the world.

Lena Waithe Yeah. Yeah.

Michele Norris Yeah. Okay.

Lena Waithe Yeah, yeah.

Michele Norris How quickly did your phone ring?

Lena Waithe You know it. She wasn't mad about it. You know, I think I think the one thing she said was. Is that what I said? You know, because I think memory is a tricky thing. You it's you don't it also it's a very. It must also have been a tough thing for a person to hear your kid come out of the closet. So she might have also just been you kind of don't remember what you say or what you've said or what the first thing that comes out of it.

Michele Norris And it's also Rashomon. I mean, you know, two people can be in the same place. You and I might remember this conversation slightly differently.

Lena Waithe Absolutely, absolutely. Exactly. So. But that mean she wasn't even being accusatory. She was just like, is that what I said? Is that what I. And I was like, yeah, but I think the good thing was we were in a much better place at that point. And so it wasn't like she was still struggling with it. I don't think she was embarrassed by it. I think it was odd for her, for me to be so embraced and so beloved as a person who was openly queer. I think that was just a crazy thing for her. But also, I think it was crazy for a lot of people. Because I do not understand. I never had a coming out to the public. Did not do that when I came into this industry. I came in as myself. And I didn't realize that that was really that was a unique.

Michele Norris Thing industry that didn't always allow people to fully be themselves.

Lena Waithe Exactly, exactly. And so I was so and maybe because I had come out to my mom like that was the only person I really cared about necessarily like me coming out to. And I'd done that in my life. So when I had sat with Aziz, that for the character Denise, she was supposed to be straight, but because I was so myself, he said, this is more interesting. So let's just do this. Let's have her be queer and let's yeah, we'll do it. We'll change it. And I was like, okay. I don't think, Aziz and I even understood how significant that would be for the character to be a more of a reflection of who I was or how I walked through the world.

ACT 3

Michele Norris You said you're almost 40. So let's just say you have packed a lot into life, you know, in just four decades. Because I forget that you're not even 40 yet.

Lena Waithe I'm coming, this coming May 17th.

Michele Norris And you are. We see it on the sky. We see it in your film Queen & Slim. We see it in all of your projects. We see it now. And you've started a literary imprint. You have a certain confidence as a writer. And when I was reading about you, I thought, well, this has been there all along because you were talking about how you would watch TV. Your mom, your grandma was watching TV was always on in your house. Many people watch TV and say, I want to do what they do. I want to be on TV. I want to be an actor. You were watching TV and saying, I want to write for TV. I can write these shows. Early on you knew you wanted to be a writer.

Lena Waithe Yeah, yeah. And I think what really moved me, obviously I loved the cast of these shows that I watched and I love clearly I was, I mean come on a different world. I loved every single character. I loved every face I saw. But I was more intrigued by what they were saying. And in some way, because I don't come from a Hollywood family, I don't have anyone in the industry. But I knew that, okay, these people are thinking these things. This is a show. This is entertainment, and I didn't know what a television writer necessarily was, but I knew that because I would see the credits, I would see names across the screen. So I just thought to myself, who are those people? Who are these people that are making this magic happen on my TV screen? And then I used to see Susan Fales-Hill all the time. I see that name all the time. And then of course, fast forward to her and I'm meeting, through Gina Prince-Bythewood and then Susan obviously was the showrunner for 20s, for those first two seasons. But that comes from me saying that name, you know, and then and then seeing a Shonda Rhimes name saying Aaron Sorkin's names and Debbie Allen's name, who I was just with this past Sunday. I would just see these names, and I didn't even know what they look like.

Michele Norris So you also center the kitchen in many of your shows, particularly in the shy stuff has always happened in your kitchen? Yes. Always have.

Lena Waithe That's a really great observation.

Michele Norris And there's a, you know, certain Chicago element to a lot of these kitchens, these kitchens, and especially now that I host the show and I listen to people describe kitchens all the time, I find when I'm watching shows, I'm looking at kitchens in a different way because I keep hearing people describe their mama's kitchens. And I realize that a lot of people, it looks too artificial, like it looks like someone was trying really hard to make this look like a 1950s era kitchen, or they're really hard. And in watching the show in particular, even though you're seeing kitchens with people of a lot of different stations in life, for sure. Kitchen of the, you know, driver who lives in downtown in a big glass building and, you know, the folks that are sitting around a kitchen, in, you know, wooden chairs around a round table much like the one in your house. How involved are you in that and how much is that inspired by your Grandmama's kitchen, where you used to sit and eat takeout food six days a week?

Lena Waithe True. You know, it's interesting because I'm a big believer in hiring people that are really good at what they do and then getting out the way. So it's just it's me communicating to, you know, line producers, directors, obviously sometimes actors, but it's me describing what we should see. And so that's really where I can sometimes say I want the kitchen to feel lived in, or I want the kitchen to feel pristine, meaning people don't cooking anything. So it is it's a thing about it says a lot about a character who they are. Again, thank you. Of course, because you're so brilliant. That's such an interesting observation that I didn't even make for myself. So the thing about the food in the kitchen is something that I feel like, well, yeah, like, what is the kitchen saying about this character? You know, are they in there all the time with their cooking? And I'm, I'm, I don't I'm giving too much away. But we have a Thanksgiving episode this season of the show. It's our first one. Yeah. And, and I asked if we could call it Thanksgiving as a, as a nod and, but it's, you see, all these people cook in and in the kitchen and obviously and there was a big thing that I wanted where I was like, I want to see a black woman's hands clean and greens in a sink sinks. And, and we have a beautiful overhead shot of that.

Michele Norris That's such an evocative thing. Because that's an act of love. Because greens, you can't just bring them home in threes.

Lena Waithe No. Nope nope nope nope nope. Takes a while, you know. And that's the thing. That's what my grandmother really would get into it on Thanksgiving. Like she would make chitlins. I'm a big chitlins fan. Everybody not a fan.

Michele Norris OK I… You can snatch my soul sister license.

Lena Waithe Come on. Oh really.

Michele Norris I probably shouldn't say it on the air but.

Lena Waithe No, you can say it.

Michele Norris You know, I just… phew

Lena Waithe It’s fine, I'm not judging you. You know, I respect you too much to ever snatch any one of your cards, you know? But if you had my grandmother's chitlins, I promise you, you would have. They were great.

Michele Norris They were great. What I think it was is my mother. I had babysitters because my mom worked odd hours, Nettie Duncan and her sister. And because most people don't like cleaning greens.

Lena Waithe Of course not. Yeah.

Michele Norris She and her sister would clean greens for other people. Wow. And so that was, you know, as a kid. And you come home, you hope your hair smells like that. You know, it's just, oh, it's overserved, OK. Fair early in life.

Lena Waithe Traumatized I understand, but I grew up loving them because, you know, I mean, my grandmother made them really well and, you know, but that was.

Michele Norris Again something you have to take time and clean.

Lena Waithe Yes. No no no. She you spend a lot of time, you know, cleaning chitlins and collard greens and, making sweet potato pie from scratch. And it was so when she would get in there, she would get in there. And when she felt like it and it was always a treat. It was always nice. And whenever she asked me if she could make something for me, I would always say I would always ask for chicken and dumplings, which she made really well and really beautifully and with love and so, yeah but…

Michele Norris So wait tell me about these chicken and dumplings because. I love chicken and dumplings.

Lena Waithe Isn’t it the best. I mean, it's like

Michele Norris Like it's a bowl of love.

Lena Waithe Yeah, it's. I don't know what's better than that. And that's the thing it's like is. And it's also something that takes time. It does because you guys, like, you gotta really let it, like, simmer and stew for a while. And you got to make the obviously the dumplings. And my grandmother would make those from scratch and pull in the like, dark pieces of meat only. And, and, and it was like a very thick, you know, base. And I just remember her asking me, like, we want to make for you. I was like you, you make chicken like dolphins. And she was like, okay. And she made him. My mom was like, what? Who’s cooking chicken and dumplings. What? And she’s like because Lena asked for it.

Michele Norris You change your plans behind some chicken and dumplings.

Lena Waithe Okay.

Michele Norris Concert tickets tonight, but maybe I’ll just.. Maybe I’ll just, you know.

Lena Waithe Let me sit down. Yes, because. Because you're gonna make a big pot of it, obviously. And so the family was, like, eating on it for like a week, you know, and everybody was like, this is just. And talk about comfort food. You know, you just put some in the bowl, heat it up. You good. You gone.

Michele Norris Yes. The ultimate comfort.

Lena Waithe It’s the best.

Michele Norris Well Chicken and dumplings also is if you're in the winter, it just it's like, what do they call it? Rib-stickin food that just…

Lena Waithe Yea, sticks to your ribs.

Michele Norris It could ward off. Any kind of illness because it's kind of like almost, I guess, you know, in the Jewish community, they probably would say it's close to matzo ball soup, but it's different because the dumplings are heavier.

Lena Waithe And it's not a brothy, you know, it's not like iit's heavy. And I also was like, how often does one have that? Like, you don't really see it on menus. It's like not

Michele Norris You're right now that you're thinking about it. Even soul food restaurants don't really serve chicken, I think it's probably because the dumplings don't hold, you know.

Lena Waithe Right. You gotta make it…

Michele Norris Yeah. It’s a timing issue.

Lena Waithe You got to make it fresh and then you let it simmer. It's always good the next day to, you know, after it's been made because it's sitting and.

Michele Norris Oh everything's better the next day.

Lena Waithe Oh that's true, that's true.

Michele Norris You know, that's the cookbook we're going to write about the show better the next day because every recipe we get is better the next day.

Lena Waithe This is true. This is true.

Michele Norris So you have the chicken and dumplings, but you don't have a chicken and dumpling recipe. I think we can help you out there if you want one. If you decide that.

Lena Waithe I would love one.

Michele Norris I want to make one. My son interviewed my late mother in law. She's gone to glory now. But he interviewed her because he loved her. Chicken and dumplings.

Lena Waithe Oh, wow.

Michele Norris And he really almost interrogated her. I want the recipe. And I actually have it in my red folder where I keep all the family recipes, where he wrote it down in his little ticky tacky ten year old writing, oh.

Lena Waithe Oh my gosh.

Michele Norris Of a chicken and dumpling recipe. But we now, as a family cherish that because again, they didn't write stuff down.

Lena Waithe Right? That's the thing my grandmother did not have, like pieces of paper or books or whatever she really did cook from feeling, which is that.

Michele Norris Yeah. So we, thanks to…And you've met Norris. So thanks to Norris interrogation. We now have you know a culinary anthropology that we can, you know, hold on to a family recipe.

Lena Waithe Nice. That's beautiful.

Michele Norris Alright well, we got to get in the kitchen together at some point. Let’s make that happen.

Lena Waithe Come on, show me. Teach me.

Michele Norris Always. You know, any time we'll make that happen. DC you know, someplace LA, we'll figure out yes, how to do that. I'm so glad you made time for us. I have love this conversation. Thank you also for giving us a preview of the next season of The Chi.

Lena Waithe Only for you.

Michele Norris Okay, well, and the, you know, the people that are listening to this, the, you know, they're in on it now too. So thank you very much for that. Of course. Lena, it's. It's been a pleasure. Much love.

Lena Waithe Much love to you. Thank you so much.

KICKER

Lena is natural-born storyteller. Didn’t you love that image of her grandmother’s bustling dining table, where everyone convened over food and card games and holiday meals. The kitchen table is such a sacred space no matter if it’s fancy or well-worn around the edges. Because it is what happens at the table that counts the most — a place where you are free to be your full self — and as in Lena’s case– the place where you can help the rest of the family accept that….and eventually…. Celebrate that. It makes sense that Lena came out to her mom over a meal. It makes sense that the kitchens are the centerpiece of her work as a filmmaker and showrunner in Hollywood. I wouldn't be surprised if you are listening to this episode and thinking of the kitchen tables from your own past. The homework. The traditions. The lazy susan filled with hot sauce and condiments, the way you kick you siblings under the table, or may kick yourself these days for not fully appreciating how hard your mama worked to create that loving space. Most of us don’t have a TV show where we can share our kitchen memories with the world, but we can all find ways to embrace the ways our kitchens have shaped us, figure how to incorporate the best of that in our lives going forward, and maybe reach back with a thank you or a nod of appreciation for all the people who made that kitchen space special.

Now, about the chicken and dumplings that Lena raved about. If you have ever had a steaming hot bowl of dumplings that are puffy and dense floating in brothy, gravy with fat chunks of seasoned chicken - you know why that is her go-to comfort food. If you’ve never tried Chicken and dumplings – we’ve got a healing, rib-sticking chicken and dumplings recipe that you will find on my Instagram page at Michele underscore underscore Norris, that’s two underscores. AND you can also find it at our website – yourmamaskitchen.com.

Before we go— a reminder. We want to hear from YOU. Our listeners have been sharing stories about THEIR mama’s kitchens and they are just lovely……

In my mom's mind, a kitchen isn't complete without the spice box. Without the masala. So when I served in the Peace Corps in the Dominican Republic for two years, my mom actually sent me off with a temporary waterproof plastic masala double that she set up for me to carry. And when I married my husband, whose parents are also South Indian, we have a special place in our new houses kitchen to stack our steel masala doubles together because he has one from his mama's kitchen too.

Here’s your chance….We’re opening up our Inbox for you to record yourself and tell us about your mama’s recipes, some memories from YOUR kitchen growing up, or your thoughts on some of the stories you’ve heard on this podcast. Make sure to send us a Voice Memo at Y-M-K AT Higher Ground Productions DOT com… for a chance for your story and your voice to be featured in a future episode!

Make sure to follow us, subscribe, have a great week, see you next time, and until then, be bountiful.

CREDITS

Michele: This has been a Higher Ground and Audible Original. Produced by Higher Ground Studios

Senior producer - Natalie Rinn

Producer - Sonia Htoon

Additional Production support by Misha Jones

Sound design and engineering from Andrew Eapen and Ryan Kozlowski

Higher Ground Audio's editorial assistant is Camila Thur de Koos.

Executive producers for Higher Ground are Nick White, Mukta Mohan, Dan Fierman and me, Michele Norris.

Executive producers for Audible are Nick D’Angelo and Ann Heppermann.

The show’s closing song is 504 by The Soul Rebels.

Editorial and web support from Melissa Bear and Say What Media.

Talent booker - Angela Peluso

SPECIAL THANKS VOICE TRAX LOS ANGELES

Chief Content Officer Rachel Ghiazza

And that’s it - goodbye everybody.

Copyright 2024 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC.

Sound recording copyright 2024 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC.