"Your Mama's Kitchen" transcript: Episode 6

Your Mama's Kitchen Episode 6: W. Kamau Bell

TRANSCRIPT:

Audible Originals presents Your Mama's Kitchen, hosted by Michele Norris.

Kamau Bell: I told my mom, like, I signed you up for snack. And she was just like, "son of a –!" because it was like, you're supposed to make something. She just like, grabbed a box of Jiffy Cornbread. She sort of like threw something else in to make the thing seem a little more homemade and I remember kids were like, because I was in probably white private school at that point. And she just laughed about the thing that those kids thought they were getting, some sort of like homemade African-American classic, deep-home recipe.

Michele Norris: Welcome to Your Mama's Kitchen, the podcast that explores how we are shaped as adults by the kitchens we grew up in as kids. I’m Michele Norris.

My guest today is W. Kamau Bell, and among other things, we talk about his quest to find a taste of home and for him that means the taste of fried pies. Now some of you hear the words "fried pie" and think of those little apple fritter things you get at McDonalds or those hostess treats. That is not what I’m talking about. I am talking about fried pies that are made in somebody’s kitchen. Little pouches of pie crust dough that are fluted around the edges and stuffed with a hot, gooey, sugary fruit filling. Apples. Cherries. Peach is my personal favorite. And the best part… the whole thing—that little crescent shaped confection—is fried up to a beautiful golden brown crisp. It’s a little pocket-sized, single-serving dessert that you’d have all to yourself, and it has a deep history that’s rooted in the South—just like today’s guest.

W. Kamau Bell is a comedian, activist, and writer, known for his biting commentary on race and inequality in America. He’s exposed some of the ugliest parts of America’s history and our current divisions in his work, while at the same time managing to make us laugh. He hosted his own show, United Shades of America on CNN, he produced a documentary called We Need to Talk about Cosby and, more recently, the HBO film about a generation of multiracial children called 1000% Me.

Kamau was born in Palo Alto and lived in Boston, Indianapolis, and Chicago, but every summer he always returned to his father’s home in Mobile, Alabama. Those were summers filled with family, community and food. To this day, even though he’s lived in the Bay Area in Northern California for years — he still sees the gulf coast town of Mobile as his true home. And that’s what brings us to those fried pies. That’s the TASTE of home for Kamau. Not his mama’s fried pies. But HER mama’s fried pies. It’s a taste he can remember but can’t quite replicate because his grandmother never wrote the recipe down.

In this episode… we learn about what Kamau has learned looking over his shoulder to assess how the elders in his life influenced his journey.

Michele Norris: This is a podcast that begins with a simple question: Tell me about your mama's kitchen. And I know the answer is going to be interesting because your your mom is someone who's done some stuff.

Kamau Bell: Yeah. I mean the room that my mom is probably least interested in in any place he's ever lived has been the kitchen that is not her Area like it's not that she's I wouldn't say she's a bad cook. She just is doing what she needs to do to get the job done.

Michele Norris: And what does that mean?

Kamau Bell: That means I have a child. I have to feed this child way, like and I do. And I do understand that, like I would like my child to eat vegetables and I'd like my child to not eat the same thing every day. Looking back, it's like explaining beanie weenies to people. It feels like I'm talking about a story of neglect. But it was actually...

Michele Norris: Wait, beanie weenies?

Kamau Bell: Beanie weenies, which I think it was literally. And I'm if my mom's going to hear this, but I think it was literally a can of pork and beans poured into a casserole dish and then like three or four hot dogs put in that dish and then put it in an oven for a period of time.

Michele Norris: And that was dinner?

Kamau Bell: I don't think there were other things added to it. We did a lot of garlic powder in my house, but then there'd be a salad, you know? So it just it wasn't just pork and beans it was only when I got older and left and went to other people's houses that understood the ranges of cooking that some moms did. my mom was very clear that like, like she came from, she grew up in a house where her mom was like the classic, like Black mom and therefore Black grandmother. I know all the recipes, but none of them were written down. And I will just go in the kitchen and make some things happen and nobody's going to really know what I'm doing. And my mom, I think, really actively like stayed out of that room because I think she associated that space with like domesticity. And that was the last thing my mom wanted to be looked at as someone who had been domesticated.

Michele Norris: And your mother was, she's an academic. She has her own publishing house. She has published several books herself. So she didn't necessarily see a domesticated role for herself?

Kamau Bell: No, she was, you know, a single Black mom back when that was like a slur. “Broken home” was the thing that they would say on the news. Like that was a technical term. And we would laugh about it, like, Kamau, you realize you live in a broken home. And we would laugh and laugh and laugh and I would see my dad in the summer. So I had a connection to him. But, you know, she was just she was out there, like, hustling and working and started working out in like corporate America and helping to edit English textbooks. And so, you know, the kitchen was the place where it's like and again. I'm not trying to put it. She just was like, I need to feed my child, but I also need to be efficient about it because of work. Because I get a lot of because.

Michele Norris: I got stuff to do.

Kamau Bell: I got stuff to do.

Michele Norris: A lot happens in a kitchen. There's a lot of business that happens in, you know, within those four walls. And sometimes it has nothing to do with what you serve on the plate or cook up on the stove. What else was happening in that kitchen?

Kamau Bell: I joke about it now, but we cared more about conversation and connection and we cared about the food necessarily. As a kid, I didn't think of the food as bad. The food, I loved beanie weenies, I loved my mom's spaghetti and meat sauce. Like, I love these things, but it was more about like conversation and connection. Like, I think me and my mom were just always in the midst of conversation. And I always felt like nothing was off-limits. And so we were always talking about, and also our house was like wall-to-wall books. So there was just always conversation about books. There's always conversation about TV. My mom, when I was a little kid, would listen to all of my Bruce Lee trivia facts, whether she cared or not because she just wanted to be in conversation. Whereas I don't know that my dad ever would know about any of the things like I was interested in on that level. Whereas my mom was sort of like open to like, I mean, the best example is: "Sure, we can talk about the TV show The Dukes of Hazzard and how you love the car, that General Lee..." You know, like she was just sort of like, this is what my child wants to talk about. We will be in conversation about it.

Michele Norris: She just wanted to hear you talk.

Kamau Bell: Yes. I mean, I heard Damon Wayans say this one time that his mom was like, if he drew if he drew a circle on a piece of paper, she was like, you're Picasso. And I was like, yeah, that's the mom I had.

Michele Norris: So when you have kids and you're trying to have conversations with them, particularly when they go through the tween years and then the teen years, it's almost like trying to keep a balloon in the air that doesn't have that doesn't have helium in it. and you're hitting it. You're trying to keep you're trying to keep up the conversation, keep it going, keep it going. And kids enter a space at some point where they kind of don't want to talk to you. How was your day? Fine.

Kamau Bell: Yeah.

Michele Norris: What are you doing? You know, whatever. Yeah.

Kamau Bell: Yeah.

Michele Norris: But you kept talking. What was the secret? Why is it that you were able to keep that that she was able to keep that door of communication open even when you entered that phase that for a lot of kids is a shutdown phase?

Kamau Bell: Yeah. I mean, any of my stuff that happened in high school, like the sort of the teen years. Like I was, none of it disconnected me from my mom. I think she really understood that it was like the two of us against the world. And she was sort of raising a friend and not raising a son. Now, her friend was her son, but I also didn't feel like she was like—there was not an authoritative feeling in my house, like there wasn't a feeling of like, whereas with my dad and I was in summers with him, he was my father. He was older than me. I've done more than, you know, more than you, which creates distance.

Michele Norris: So it's interesting as I hear you as a Black man say that your mom was raising a friend, because for a lot of folks who grew up in African-American households, they often hear, "I'm not your friend."

Kamau Bell: Mmhmm, yeah.

Michele Norris: That's what you hear from your mom, you know? You know, "I'm not one of your little friends." You know, "You can do that with one of your little friends."

Kamau Bell: And "you don't talk to me like that." Yeah.

Michele Norris: Yeah, but you never heard any of that.

Kamau Bell: No, I felt like my opinion mattered to her. I only don't say this now because it would sound weird, but for years as a kid, if you'd asked me, like, who are your best friends, I would have listed my mom as one of my best friends.

Michele Norris: Well, that's beautiful.

Kamau Bell: Like it. Yeah. Like, you know, and at the time and you get a teenager, like sounds weird, but, like. But at the time. I didn't know it was. It just was like we had a really close relationship while at the same time…

Michele Norris: And you still do right?

Kamau Bell: Yeah. I mean, yes, yes, yes, absolutely. She lives here in Oakland. You know, I just I you know, my kids see her regularly. Yeah. We have a real close relationship, but like, I just didn't think that my opinion didn't matter. But also at the same time, we were super independent, like we lived in Boston. I look back now and go, man, how she pulled that off? It was like a three-bedroom house with a finished basement, just two people. And I would like wake up and make myself a bowl of cereal on a Saturday and watch cartoons all day. And she would be in her room or in the living room doing stuff. So like, I felt a real sense of independence while at the same time a real sense of community, kinship, communication, open lines of communication.

Michele Norris: Did she have a kitchen personality? Well, she different when she walked in the kitchen because for some people they do take on men, women, all kinds of people spend time in the kitchen. Sometimes they become more officious, sometimes they become more felicitous. What personality did she take on when she entered that space sometimes it's just like, "let me do what I've got to do so I can get out of here," whatever it is. What was your mom's personality?

Kamau Bell: That was funny as I thought, like, what was her kitchen personality? Because I never thought of it was like. But then I was like for some reason, Liam Neeson in Taken comes to mind. I have a set of skills like I'm here to do the things I need to do. I'm not doing more than that, and I'm here to get this is I'm here to feed you. And once I've made the thing, I can then relax and move on to the next thing.

Michele Norris: Clean it up and then move on.

Kamau Bell: Yeah. There's a story that my mom likes to tell is that, like, I was in, first grade, kindergarten, whatever, that young school. And you had to sign your parents up to bring a snack. And so that morning I told my mom, like, I signed you up for snack and she was just like "Son of a—!" Because it was like, you're supposed to make something. This was the era of like, you're not allowed to just bring a package of things. She's supposed to make something. And she just like, grabbed a box of Jiffy, like Jiffy Cornbread—a classic staple in Black households especially in that era—and like, made Jiffy Cornbread, and I think put some raisins in. It like she just was like...

Michele Norris: She put raisins in cornbread?

Kamau Bell: Don't quote me on this. But there was some sort of like.

Michele Norris: Of here's this. And she says, "Don't you tell somebody I put raisins in cornbread."

Kamau Bell: Maybe let's say it was a muffin mix, but there was some sort of like—she sort of like threw something else in to make the thing seem a little more homemade and then took it to school. And the thing is, I remember kids were like, because I was in probably white private school at that point, like "Ooh, oh!" And she just laughed about the thing that those kids thought they were getting some sort of, like, homemade African-American classic, deep-home recipe. And it was a box of something in our house that she just sort of begrudgingly made quickly.

Michele Norris: A word about Jiffy Cornbread, though. No hate for Jiffy Cornbread.

Kamau Bell: No, no, no, I have nothing but respect for Jiffy. If you hand me cornbread, I'm still expecting it to taste like Jiffy to this day.

Michele Norris: It's the default.

Kamau Bell: And then I sort of like, "it doesn't taste like dessert," cause its cornbread.

Michele Norris: Cause you wonder. Have you looked at that little blue box on the side and see what the sugar content is? Cause it is kind of sweet.

Kamau Bell: There's reason it tastes like dessert.

As you know, I typically ask my guests to describe their mama’s kitchen. But in Kamau’s case, he spent every summer with his FATHER in Mobile, Alabama, and so I wanted to hear about THAT kitchen too, since Mobile is the city he considers his true home.

Kamau Bell: When I think about visiting my dad in Mobile, and I lived there for two and a half years one point so I did spend some extended time there, but it's not my dad's kitchen I'm talking about. I'm talking about my stepmother's kitchen. In my stepmother's kitchen. Larissa. She's since passed away, but was like, she was the opposite of my mom. She would get up and you'd get a breakfast and it would be like home. It'd be like freshly cooked grits, not instant grits. Conecuh sausages, which is like very southern, very southern sausages. And it'd be like, you know, I'm thinking about a special breakfast. There might be fried oysters, cream of wheat, cut-up fruit. Especially for like a special breakfast. And then you go, man, that was great. And you look in the kitchen, what's she doing? She's working on lunch. And this is a woman who was, like, also a registered nurse. This is just, "This room is very important to me. I got the latest gadgets." This is before the Internet. I'm collecting recipes. She was part of a gourmet club. And then dinner's like a whole other thing, so it's like, they couldn't be more polar opposites. And I enjoyed the food out of both those kitchens. But the food out of Larissa's kitchen was like an event.

Michele Norris: As close as you are to your mother and how you've moved around that when you think of home, you often think of Mobile. Why is that?

Kamau Bell: Because those places are still there, there's still people in those places who know me since I was a kid or know me since I was younger. So I can like go to Mobile. And we did this in United Shades of America and I can go to the church that my grandmother used to go to. I can literally walk from that church to our house that is now like abandoned. I mean, I don't know if it is now, but when we went it was abandoned, those sense memories, the streets look the same. It hasn't like been totally gentrified and turned into something else. There's still going to be an old lady who's like, "I've known you since you were a baby." And I'm like, Ma'am, I met you when I was in high school, you know what I mean?

Michele Norris: Well to her you're a baby, you're younger than her, so...

Kamau Bell: Yeah, exactly, yeah. And my dad still lives there, so there's a reason to go back. Whereas I lived in Indianapolis when I was a kid from, like, I don't know, from little baby till I was like four. I have no idea what that apartment complex looks like. And so Mobile, because I've been going there my whole life, there's always like this ah, little tiny airport. It feels very familiar in a way that, like as a kid, I resented, but as an adult I came to really appreciate. And then as an adult who had kids, it was like, I got to take you guys to Mobile.

Michele Norris: And when you took your kids to Mobile, you took them to the Mardi Gras parade.

Kamau Bell: My oldest daughter, yeah, we went to Mardi Gras.

Michele Norris: Mobile is the home of Mardi Gras. People think it's New Orleans, but it actually all began in Mobile.

Kamau Bell: It began in Mobile. In New Orleans people are listening right now, getting in their feelings about it. But the way the math maths is that it started in Mobile. The difference is in Mobile, Mardi Gras is a very church-filled community organization, child-friendly thing. New Orleans took it a different direction.

Michele Norris: When you went back to Mobile for United Shades of America, your show on CNN, it was really hard for you. I mean, it was a beautiful thing to watch, but it was a difficult thing to watch because you put your emotions right out there for everybody to see. And you edited that so you could have that out, but you decided to keep that there. Why was that so difficult? And why did you decide to share that aspect of your story?

Kamau Bell: So what happened was the producer that year, we were like, oh, we're going to shoot that scene in your grandmother's house. And I was like, okay. And suddenly we pull up and I look and it's abandoned and it's boarded up. And I just viscerally, like, start weeping. I felt a little bit, again, like you're not treating me like a person. You're treating me like, well, a host. We'll take the host to his dead grandmother's house, and he'll talk about it. And so all my feelings are firing off.

Michele Norris: You didn't know what you were going to see when you got there.

Kamau Bell: I didn't know how it was going to affect me. And I sort of at that moment, like somebody should have thought this through, somebody should be thinking about my experience. It wasn't until years in the show, Moe Fallon, one of my best friends who became a producer who was always thinking about my experience. So then there was the cameraman, Patrick Higgins, who was the director of photography in the show. We had formed a real friendship, and the first time I ever cried on the show, I was like, Patrick, come here, because I knew he would just get the shot. I'm talking to the viewer at home but I'm really talking to Patrick. So in that moment I was like, call Patrick, tell him to get his camera up as soon as possible.

Michele Norris: You wanted him to catch your emotions?

Kamau Bell: You know, takes camera people a while to get their stuff together, if they're just sort of doing it. If we wait a half hour, it's just not going to be the same. And I know that whatever value there is in me having this emotional reaction, it's only worth it for the show if we catch it.

Michele Norris: So it had to be authentic.

Kamau Bell: Yeah. And I just wanted to like, I wanted to have the show where in the moment I could talk directly to the camera about how I was feeling and we can cut it out later if it sucks.

Michele Norris: When you went back to Mobile you're weren't just a host. You were grandson, and son, looking at a house—

Kamau Bell: And a cousin.

Michele Norris: —that was once vibrant. And full of love and activity and had a kitchen that was the heartbeat and centerpiece of that house, and that it was gone.

Kamau Bell: And it was filled with Sears catalogs and my grandmother's, she had a room that was just for her to sew in because she was the person in the neighborhood where people brought her stuff to like, make this or fix this. And I laid on the floor watching her watch Another World and Santa Barbara and other soap operas and The Price Is Right and me and my cousin N. K. Jemisin would go down the hall to the front of the house.

Michele Norris: The science fiction author.

Kamau Bell: The highly acclaimed.

Michele Norris: Very well known, highly acclaimed author of science fiction.

Kamau Bell: We were both like six, seven, eight, nine year-olds who would go to the front of the house where the sun would come in because it was warmer up there and because the air conditioning was too cold, you know, and we would like sit there and I would draw and she would write and we would talk about what we were going to do. I was going to be a comic book artist and she was going to be a writer. Well, half worked out.

And the house was then rented to somebody else and I got to go in the house one time after it had been rented to somebody else. And it was just weird to see a bunch of strangers in this house that was not their house. Get out of this house and take your stuff. This is not supposed to be here. I mean, my grandma's house out the house, literally living room, nobody goes into, furniture covered in plastic like that house, never entertained in the living room. Nobody was told to sit down and things are literally covered in plastic.

Michele: Food can evoke strong memories and sometimes strong opinions. You may recall that in one of our previous episodes, CBS News host Gayle King had mentioned that Kamau had appeared on HER show wearing a shirt that was essentially a manifesto on mac and cheese.

Gayle King: He was wearing a T-shirt, no joke, that said, “All mac and cheese is not created equal.”

Michele Norris: And he's right about that. There are no lies detected.

We heard her side of that story in her episode. In this episode I want to hear his…

Michele Norris: You walked into the studio wearing a hoodie or a T-shirt that said “Not all mac and cheese is created equal.”

Kamau Bell: That's right.

Michele Norris: And apparently there was a conversation because some of the people on set understood that and some of them didn't.

Kamau Bell: No, there was a white man who was also the journalist there—

Michele Norris: Tony.

Kamau Bell: Tony was like, what does that mean? And I sort of looked at Gayle and also looked at, uh...

Michele Norris: Nathan.

Kamau Bell: Nathan, yeah. And I was like, you wanna step in here? Like, this is your man's. I don't want to get into any sort of weird conversation.

Michele Norris: So Gayle and Nate looked at each other and went, they understood.

Kamau Bell: And then somebody picked it up the conversation because I just felt like I'm in your house. I don't want to like, school you on a thing, so maybe somebody else can help you.

Michele Norris: So maybe you can school the audience on the words on that T-shirt, "Not all the mac and cheese is created equal."

Kamau Bell: So it is a company called Mahogany Mommies, which I always want to rep, it’s a Black-women-owned apparel company that has many amazing sweatshirts and T-shirts.

Michele Norris: Shoutout to Mahogany Mommies.

Kamau Bell: Yeah. So that it feels very authentically Black. And that one just felt so like surreptitious in what it's saying. I grew up only seeing Kraft macaroni and cheese in commercials for Kraft macaroni and cheese, I never had it until I was an adult and so like going like, huh? And it was all these commercials about, "it's the cheesiest mac and cheese," and you'd see it in the commercial and I'd be like, that doesn't even look like mac and cheese to me. I don't even read that. It's macaroni noodles and then like, nacho cheese sauce on the top of it. Like, I don't read that as macaroni and cheese. Because to me mac and cheese is a thing that is like baked, you know, you got to put in the oven. It's got to be crusty and brown on the top. Now I know there's bread crumbs on there sometimes, at the time I didn't know and you cut it into like big thick squares of mac and cheese that hold together. When you ask somebody if they're making this recipe, if they only use one type of cheese, you're like, uh-oh, I'm sorry. You know, it's got to have like multiple…

Michele Norris: You're not bringing the mac and cheese to the family function.

Kamau Bell: Oh, yeah. No, please don't bring the mac and cheese to the house. So yeah, we'll, we'll take care of that. You bring the Jiffy Cornbread. But yes, literally I made it the other day because my middle kid wanted me to make mac and cheese and we do do box mac and cheese in our house. We do Annie's, we will do that sometimes. But Juno was like I want dada mac and cheese which is such a great thing to hear called dada mac and cheese because it's like it's you want.

Michele Norris: Oh yeah, I would strut on that forever.

Kamau Bell: Yeah, no, for sure. It's like you go, it takes me like an hour to make it even, okay.

Michele Norris: So what's so special about dada mac and cheese. You make the sauce in a separate pan.

Kamau Bell: Yeah, it's like, I mean, there's a recipe. And let me be clear. I'm also like my mom. I find the best thing to do is don't just Google “mac cheese recipe,” Google “easy mac and cheese recipes” so you don't end up in some weird, high-end New York Times recipe that takes three days to make. That says you got to order the cheese from France or else it's not really. And then if you go "easy mac and cheese" it doesn't mean they're not good recipes. It just means they're like, they're aware that you're a person who's got other things to do.

Michele Norris: So what kind of cheese do you use?

Kamau Bell: Gruyere. And I'd say a medium cheddar.

Michele Norris: Do you put bread crumbs?

Kamau Bell: This is why I'm saying. The recipe does not call for bread crumbs on the top, but I keep it real, so I throw some bread crumbs at the top. And then the key part is under the broiler before you serve it, because that's how you get the crust, the chewy bits. Otherwise it's going to all be soft. And the thing in a good mac and cheese is texture.

Michele Norris: You want to hear when the spoon goes into the mac and cheese. And you And everybody fights for the corners because that's where it's nice and brown.

Kamau Bell: Yes, you want the corner. You want the corners to be extra chewy. So you got to put it under the broiler and when you put it under the broiler, it'll say two or 3 minutes in the broiler. But you should know in your kitchen, everybody's broiler is different, so you got to really keep an eye on it. So because our broiler is not that hot, so I might be there for 5 minutes, but don't do that. You check your broiler first.

Michele Norris: Yeah, because the last thing you want to do is put all that time into a mac and cheese and then have it come out as a crispy, burnt black.

Kamau Bell: No, no, don't walk. Don't walk away from a broiler is some good advice. Don't get a haircut before a big vacation and don't walk away from a broiler.

Michele Norris: We know you from your work and you make people think and you make people laugh and you ask uncomfortable questions. You use your platform. And this is one of the reasons that that I love what you do. I'll say that to you. Thank you for doing this work. I love what you do. And you take that that microscope and you turn it toward the most difficult things.

Kamau Bell: Mmhmm.

Michele Norris: How much of that—that thread, that vein in your work—comes from your upbringing and particularly the kitchens that you grew up in?

Kamau Bell: 100%. When you rise through the levels of privilege, if you are a person who is Black in America and gets a level of privilege, part of your job is the part that is like, make it better for other folks. And so my mom, it's not an accident that she was publishing books of Black quotations and not books of quotations by plumbers. She was like, I have the ability to self-publish these books. I want to make it count. My dad, who was a corporate America guy, who was like working for insurance companies, was also like, we don't have enough Black people here. He was like doing D.E.I. work before there was an acronym for it. And so now I'm in this position of like, I sort of have both of them inside of me where, like, I'm sort of like my mom's the outside agitator, my dad's the inside agitator, and I'm sort of like bopping back and forth, like But then I got to a point of like when I was starting to figure out what is my career, what do I want to do with my career when I don't think I just want to be funny for the sake of funny, which is something wrong with that? And then it becomes about also having people hold the door open for me, like Chris Rock back in the day and being very clear about why he was doing it. Because unfamous Black guys don't get famous, don't get TV shows, so I'm going to help you. So that example is like, Oh, then that's literally what I'm supposed to do too.

Michele Norris: You have three kids.

Kamau Bell: I have three kids. Yeah, Sammy's the oldest. She knows the middle kid, Asha's the youngest, and all girls were the girl factory.

Michele Norris: How do you create the kind of space that will nourish your kids. In terms of their, you know, the food, not just the food that they need, not just, you know, to make their bodies grow strong, but to make their minds and their spirits grow strong.

Kamau Bell: So Juno was like, I want dada mac and Cheese and Juno sometimes express help, interested in like, I want to help. And so I was like, okay, but you got to help me. And so then it becomes about bringing Juno into the kitchen and really sort of like. We are then in community in a way different than if I just make the mac and cheese and put it on the plate. So not only is she legitimately helping, and I kept telling her, like, you were making this go so much faster. Which is true. Now I am supervising, but she's also like, Make me go faster because I don't have to do all of it. it's a way to connect specifically, like in that moment with my kid, with Juno in a way that we wouldn't connect otherwise And it's also, it starts to develop the thing that happened for me. she will forever, I think, associate mac and cheese with dada's mac and cheese. And she will one day put on a sweatshirt that says Not All Mac & Cheese is created equal because she will know she will eventually be at someone's house and it's like, what? Oh, now.

MICHELE VO: It’s that time of the podcast where I ask our guest about a recipe from their mama. Kamau’s situation is a little challenging because as we heard earlier, his mom was not an enthusiastic cook. So, Instead, he has a recipe from his mama’s mama… but she sadly….she never wrote down the recipe and Kamau has spent his lifetime thinking that the recipe died with his grandmother.

Kamau Bell: my grandmother used to make a thing called fried pies, my mom's mom. And it was basically the way I describe it, I was like, you know, like a hostess apple pie.

Michele Norris: Oh the fritters the one. It's like an empanada. It's folded over.

Kamau Bell: Yeah, yeah.

Michele Norris: And pinched together at the edge.

Kamau Bell: Yeah.And it fits in your hand. Yeah.

Michele Norris: I know exactly what you're talking about.

Kamau Bell: Yeah. She called them fried pies and so that was like the special recipe they would use. There were peaches, I think. And that was like.

Michele Norris: Oh man, peaches. I assumed you're talking about apples. But then when you know peaches, that takes it to a whole ‘nother.

Kamau Bell: It was like, it was like an individual peach cobbler. I would describe it like a handheld peach cobbler. Which peach cobbler is proof that like, there is something in the universe bigger than the rest of us.

Michele Norris:It sounds like that's the taste of home for you.

Kamau Bell: Yeah. I mean, that's a taste that I sort of like I haven't had in, let's see. She died when I was in high school. So it's been well over 30 years and I don't think she made them right before she died. So it's like, but it's like a thing that I have very and I remember my mom trying to make them and I don't there's no there's no written down recipe anywhere because who you know, she probably learned the recipe before she could read. She I think she would need the you know I don't even he didn't go that far in school. So you know.

Michele Norris: So I'm going to ask our listeners to help you out.

Kamau Bell: All right.

Michele Norris: So if you're listening to this….

Kamau Bell: Ooh, I like this.

Michele Norris: ... and you grew up with fried pies. If you are a baker and you think that you can help recreate, make a pilgrimage back to the fried pies of his youth, if you think you have something to add to this journey, we want to hear from you. And I spent a lot of time in the Bay Area because my kids are there and maybe we'll figure out how to make those fried pies.

Kamau Bell: Oh, that would be great. I'd be so happy. That gets me excited. That'd be great. this was in Indianapolis when she made them, but she was from Kentucky. So. So I don't know if you really need that information, but that's what happened.

Michele Norris: What was so special about those fried pies?

Kamau Bell: I mean, like I said, it was like a peach cobbler, handheld peach cobbler. So if you whatever you think.

Michele Norris: They big were, they bite sized.

Kamau Bell: Know they fit in you, They I mean, like I said, the hostess. Apple pie.

Michele Norris: Cause those are kind of large.

Kamau Bell: Yeah. But they don't.

Michele Norris: Like three or four bites.

Kamau Bell: Yeah they these are three or four bites. These might have been four or five bites. These were not like little individual bites. These were like you were holding it like, I'm holding it like a big iPhone filled with peaches that are filled with, you know, whatever it's filled with But yeah, like, it's a thing you hold in your hand that has I think it it's been over 30 years but has some weight. It is not a you know, it is not. And you take a bite and it's hot. And so the crust is it has a proper mouthfeel crust. It's like sort of a light brown on the outside. But and then, of course, the first bite heat comes out. You can't even taste it yet because it's just hot. with a peach aftertaste. But like super like that gooey peach cobbler thing that some people don't like that I like a lot.

Michele Norris: Cause peaches got that kind of jelly gelatinous thing that goes inside there.

Kamau Bell: But there's still peaches in there. So it's not just jam, it's there's still peaches that you can bite down on. And it just.

Michele Norris: Stone fruit does that. You know, people who make a good peach cobbler often have a little secret that they put into a peach cobbler because sometimes there's an undertone and it's kind of a bass note in there. I have a dear friend who used to put cayenne pepper.

Kamau Bell: Whoa.

Michele Norris: Just a little, little.

Kamau Bell: Just a little.

Michele Norris: Just a little bit. Sometimes a little clove, sometimes a little nutmeg. Do you remember? Did she have a little something? Something in there.

Kamau Bell: That I guess I would have been too young to be in? The kids is also times of like nobody saying, come in the kitchen and help me, little boy.

Michele Norris: Was there something that you remember that it had a little kick to it.

Kamau Bell: I mean, there's definitely it is not just it is more than it looks like. I definitely know that. It is definitely like there's probably, you know, where you know, I would imagine there's probably a nutmeg thing happening in there. You know, I feel like that's a common thing in baking is to is to throw a little nutmeg in there. But yeah, there's definitely like there's definitely more than meets the eye. Or the mouth.

Michele Norris: We're going to figure that out. One way or another, we're going to get that recipe back to you.

Kamau Bell: If I made them for my mom that’d be hilarious.

Michele Norris: That's pretty wonderful, she'd probably appreciate that.

Kamau Bell: No, she would. She would, because it's definitely a family like. Well, that's gone. And also like at the time she made it is infamous between us of like whew, that wasn't it.

Michele Norris:Well, and it is an important reminder that our recipes are part of our legacy and our inheritance.

Kamau Bell: Yes.

Michele Norris: And so, yes, you know, try to grab them when you can if they're written down. If you can't watch it committed to memory but.

Kamau Bell: You know it's funny that you say the secret ingredient. I'm sure this ingredient was Crisco. Or was that grease that's on the back? That's like bacon grease and all the other.

Michele Norris: That's in the Maxwell House jar that's in the back of the stove?

Kamau Bell: Yep, yep. Yeah. That was certainly a part of it. That is all the grease is that you can it's funny now I'll like make bacon like make bacon and then we have the oil over and I feel weird throwing it away. I'm like, are we supposed to like, put on the back of the stove? Well.

Michele Norris: Everybody grew up with that can on the back of the stove. Yeah.

Kamau Bell: For Melissa says, no, that's not what we do. We have olive oil.

Kamau Bell: Okay.

Michele Norris:Well, you don't make a fried pie now. I guess you could. No.

Kamau Bell: No, no. You don't make a fried pie with olive oil.

Michele Norris: That wouldn't be the same. I have loved talking to you. Thanks so much for making time for us.

Kamau Bell: Thank you for having me, this has been a beautiful experience.

Kamau’s story was filled with loving parents, a big supportive community that raised him to be the creative, confident complex thinker and entertainer he is today. And it is a delight to hear about the loving and intentional way he is parenting his kids now, particularly in the kitchen.

I just want to repeat something I mentioned earlier because it’s important. Our family recipes are part of our legacy and more important than that…they are a part of our inheritance. So are the lessons we choose to teach our children in our kitchens, intentionally or not because young people are like sponges…always watching and absorbing what they see and hear. Kamau’s mother worked hard to raise him on her own, while balancing a career, which sometimes meant beanie weenie meals on the fly or homemade treats for field trips that started with a boxed mix of some kind. No shame in that. Throughout it all she kept an open line of communication with Kamau and in return he felt so comfortable that he confided in her about everything and even considered his mom to be his best friend… Now THAT is some A-plus parenting.

Kamau may not have the recipe for the delectable fried pies his grandma used to make, but we did a little digging, asked around, did some experimentation in the kitchen, and found one that we think might come close enough to take him back in time to those childhood memories of feasting on fried pies in his grandmother's kitchen in Mobile, Alabama. So just head to my Instagram to find that recipe and a few tips on perfecting the crust and giving the fruit a little kick with a secret ingredient. And remember we want to hear about YOUR fried pie recipes. If you post it on social media make sure to use the yourmamaskitchen hashtag.

Thanks so much for listening to Your Mama’s Kitchen. I hope you have a glorious day. I’m Michele Norris. See you next time.

CREDITS

This has been a Higher Ground and Audible Original. Produced by Higher Ground Studios.

Senior producer - Natalie Rinn

Producer - Sonia Htoon

Associate producer - Angel Carreras

Sound design and engineering from Andrew Eapen and Ryo Baum

Higher Ground Audio's editorial assistants are Jenna Levin and Camila Thur de Koos.

Executive producers for Higher Ground are Nick White, Mukta Mohan, Dan Fierman, and me, Michele Norris.

Executive producers for Audible are Zola Mashariki, Nick D’Angelo, and Ann Heppermann.

The show’s closing song is 504 by The Soul Rebels.

Editorial and web support from Melissa Bear and Say What Media.