This conversation explores the history and challenges faced by Boeing, particularly after the merger with McDonnell Douglas. The discussion highlights the cultural shift and management practices that led to a decline in engineering expertise and a focus on financial engineering. The impact of outsourcing, union busting, and cost-cutting measures on the quality and safety of Boeing planes is also discussed. The conversation emphasizes the importance of engineering knowledge, loyalty, and communication in the aerospace industry. Boeing's focus on incremental modifications and shareholder value has led to a decline in safety and innovation. The company's self-certification process and lack of a strong safety culture have contributed to disasters like the 737 MAX crashes. The concept of self-certification in industries where lives are at stake is questionable. The tension between short-term shareholder value and long-term value creation is a challenge for companies. The lack of multidisciplinary expertise and a culture of innovation is a concern. Elon Musk's approach to running companies like SpaceX raises questions about the balance between a driven leader and the need for a strong management team. The conversation explores the concept of the Imperial CEO and the mythic, heroic figure that CEOs have become. It discusses the importance of regulation and oversight in industries like aviation and the need for expertise and organizational knowledge. The conversation also touches on the impact of culture and the role of companies in society. The final word emphasizes the need for long-term thinking, the dangers of short-term profit-maximization, and the importance of learning from past failures.