This week we are delighted to have John Malynn OBE, a former senior Civil Servant at the DfE and Ofsted joining us. He is well versed in the delicate discussions that take place, often behind closed doors, in ensuring policy is converted into practice. With some major policy changes this week being announced by the government concerning welfare reform, he is well placed to comment.

Stan starts proceedings by reflecting on some Y6 pupils he saw locally wearing their 'Leavers 2025' sweatshirts and wondered whether this was signalling too early that the end of their Primary phase of education was now over. We consider how best to use the time between the end of the SATs period and the close of the academic year and whether the examinations are simply unacceptable in terms of providing a balanced education experience.

John then reflects on the challenges the Labour government has faced and wonders whether Sir Simon Case was correct when he recently identfied a lack of clarity on the communication front. With an important shift in the welfare reforms this week John wonders whether there is sufficient clarity on what the education reforms are and whether there has been sufficient listening to those delivering the service. Having a large parliamentary majority is clearly not enough to win all arguments.

Frank then considers an interesting report from EPI this week called 'Post 16 study programmes – understanding student choices and aspirations'. The report considers the pathways taken by students who were subject to Centre Assessed Grades (CAGs) during Covid. They recommend that 'GCSE English and maths results below grade 4 should only restrict access to level 3 courses where key elements of students’ main study programme are dependent on proficiency to this level' and that many students wanted flexibility in the structure and choices of courses. This presents challenges for the T Level moving forward.

The chat ends with us all reflecting on the turmoil at Ofsted and whether there is effective communication from senior managers. All three of us had worked with a former HMCI who was willing to front-up and was rooted in inspection methodology. We felt that this experience and focus might be the missing ingredient.

Enjoy!

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This week the two gents welcome back Rebecca Smith, a Headteacher in a large secondary school in Greater Manchester. Rebecca has been a guest a few times before and was a guest on our 100th edition of the chat in April 2022 alongside Prof Andy Hargreaves and her husband Neil Smith.

Frank worked closely with Rebecca when she was a principal at one of the Coop Trust academies, where he witnessed her amazing leadership skills in turning around a school, that was fairly dysfunctional, into an amazing place for young people to learn and for amazing staff to teach.

The chat starts with Stan considering how best to keep experienced staff invigorated and enthused about their job. He compares how this is tackled in education compared to football. He wonders whether secondments are the answer. Rebecca explains how she undertakes this challenge in her own setting and then considers the challenges that come from outside of the role and how this affects different staff in different ways.

Rebecca then reflects on an article last Sunday in a newspaper which explained how a Boarding school was reverting to giving young boarders access to a landline rather than provide free access to their smart phones. We then consider how effective any approaches that ban use during the school day (as in nearly all schools) where control of their use is unfettered in some households.

Frank then considers the challenges that are looming for school leaders in a lack of timeliness from the government. He reflects on the Covid period when guidance from the DfE usually arrived at 6pm on a Friday and then had to be considered and then shared by school leaders with staff in good time for the following week. With delays to the publication of the KCSIE guidance, delays to Ofsted Framework proposals and uncertainty over the timing of the Francis Curriculum Review it is going to be a very challenging autumn term. He notes that Leicestershire schools start their summer break in two week's time!

It's a relaxed and enjoyable chat for us. We hope it is useful and interesting for the viewers/listeners.

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A few years after Frank and Stan started their teaching careers they became aware of an education author called Pie Corbett. As there was very little guidance in the area of reading and writing Pie's books became a staple diet for professional development. Now, with over 200 publications, including the seminal 'Talk for Writing' and 'Cats, Hats and Hippos', Pie's extensive and varied career makes him an excellent guest. He doesn't disappoint.

Stan considers his wonderful holiday last week which gave him time to reflect on leadership in sport. He mourns the loss of enigmatic leaders and considers how some current managers often lack the clarity of thought and individual approach. Pie then considers a wonderful visit he made to a Primary school in Handsworth where under fresh leadership the school has been transformed. He explains how attention to detail and a consistent personal approach has led to a dramatic improvement in children's experiences and outcomes. Frank closes the chat by considering how important key teachers were in his time at school and how one in particular, Dave Milne, made history relevant, fun and interesting. As it was World Teacher Day it seemed an appropriate way to reflect on the amazing teachers we have been fortunate to work with and observe.

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This week, with Stan away on holiday enjoying some very hot weather, Frank is joined by Nic Ponsford CEO of the GEC Collective. The GEC is a global community of inclusion and well-being change-makers focused on education, empowerment, and equipping schools and organizations to create more inclusive and equitable environments. They utilize a digital platform and a network of experts to offer resources, data, and action plans to promote diversity and inclusion. This week they published their fascinating report '26000 Voices' so our chat includes a review of some of the findings. It also covers the fascinating career path Nic has engaged in and considers her nervousness as she preps for her Phd viva next week.

The chat reflects on the importance of drawing on multiple evidence and data sources to ensure a clear and broad picture is gained of issues children, young people, parents/carers and staff experience. Nic calls this a kaleidoscopic picture. We also discover how some schools in the USA are currently having to traverse the new administration's view on diversity and inclusion and we finish off with consideration of some data analysis undertaken by FFT regarding how many pupils have been affected in Private schools by the government's change on VAT.

Hope you enjoy it. We did!

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A riveting, well-informed and insightful chat with Kevin Edward Turner MBE, co-founder and co-artistic director of Company Chameleon, a highly regarded contemporary dance company based in Manchester. Kevin was a student of Frank's when he was a headteacher and re-connected in 2018 when Company Chameleon undertook dance workshops in some of the Coop's academies in Greater Manchester.

Kevin explains how his life was transformed and given purpose when the Northern Ballet Theatre Company provided a dance residence at the primary school he was attending. His obvious talent was seen immediately and fostered through the Trafford Dance Group, headed by the amazing Linda Coles. He created Company Chameleon in 2006 and it has grown from strength to strength. he's soon to accompany the dance company on a trip to Japan as part of the UK deputation for the World Expo. He is an inspiration.

But his life has been challenging especially when he faced serious mental health issues. The chat covers these and considers how important an active and vibrant arts curriculum is for all pupils and why this is sadly lacking in some schools. Stan reflects on a report published this week that makes clear how serious the drop in engagement is for students when they begin their secondary phase experience. We all offer some reasons for this. sadly, none of us were surprised by the findings.

Kevin then reflects on the many years he has engaged with young people at 42nd Street, a charity offering mental health support to young people aged 16-25 years. Yesterday was his final session with the young people. Their response and gratitude for his work were very moving. Kevin also considers the impact of free access to education that exists in Scotland and why this is a powerful force for economic and personal development.

Frank closes the chat with a reflection on the latest Sutton trust report that considers where social mobility is most successful. There appears to be a clear link between economic opportunities and the chances of achieving strong improvement in social mobility. He considers the lack of funding for FE and adult education and why the Early Years funding is important in that it supports parents/carers as well as the children.

It's a belting chat. We are incredibly proud to be able to chat for around 50 minutes with such inspiring guests. Please share the video with others. The messages about the arts, curriculum access and mental health are apposite.

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Just the two gents this week and they consider governance, leadership and the 'fit and proper' test for football, rugby league and MAT leadership. With Salford City Reds facing a winding-up order for non-payment of taxes Stan considers how they got into this position while Frank considers the journey of his beloved Southend Utd which faced similar difficulties recently. They consider the importance of honesty and transparency in leadership and Frank is quick to highlight the work of Prof Marianne Jennings and her book The Seven Signs of Ethical Collapse'. By the way, she's agreed to join our chat, we just need to pin down a date.

Frank then reflects on the recent chats with Rebecca Hanson and Aelwyn Pugh and explains why they were so impactful. The chat then considers CEO salaries and the redundancies one high profile MAT is facing and why it feels wrong when senior leaders earn so much.

We hope you enjoy it.

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After a short break the Frank and Stan Chat returns with a familiar guest joining us again. Brian Lightman, the former leader of ASCL (for 6 years) and secondary Headteacher of two Welsh schools, author and education consultant returns to consider

- the role of Facebook in deciding on which school to select

- the dangers of the current Ofsted inspection proposals

- the role of the RISE teams and they intersect with existing school improvement programmes and strategies

- the lack of a clear vision for education, and

- balancing the budget.

The chat ends on a more positive note with better news on teacher recruitment and the possible push for more Drama teachers which may indicate a shift in focus coming through the Francis Curriculum Review.

A great way to start the summer series of chats. Enjoy.

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