Shadi is a Washington Post columnist and a senior fellow at Georgetown University’s Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding. He runs a substack with Damir Marusic called Wisdom of Crowds, and his new book is The Case for American Power. It’s the third time Shadi has been on the Dishcast. We hashed out the National Security Strategy and the future of US leadership in the world, if any.

For two clips of our convo — on Bush’s idealism leading to anarchy in Iraq, and whether Trump’s amorality is stabilizing the Middle East — head to our YouTube page.

Other topics: Shadi raised with a mixed identity (American/Muslim/Arab); both parents from Egypt where he spent summers; the reinvention of immigrants; the peace and prosperity of the ‘90s; our innocence shattered on 9/11; external and internal jihad; religion in public life; the Koran; blasphemy laws in the UK; Charles Taylor and the loss of enchantment; political cults like MAGA and SJW; Deneen and other post-liberals; Obama’s realism in the Mideast; the Arab Spring; Islam’s tension with liberalism; how Israel undermined Obama; the settlements; Gaza; Muslim views of women and gays in the West; the US intervening in Bosnia, Kosovo, and the Persian Gulf; oikophobia; elites opening up China and creating a rival; Taiwan; Russia after the USSR; the invasion of Georgia and Crimea; the Syrian war and refugee crisis; the war in Ukraine; Vance in Munich; and Trump’s pressure on NATO to arm itself.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Simon Rogoff on the narcissism of pols and celebrities (from Diddy to Churchill to Trump), Laura Field on the intellectuals of Trumpism, Arthur Brooks on the science of happiness, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right’s future, and Jason Willick on trade and conservatism. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.

George is a journalist and novelist. He was a long-time staff writer at The New Yorker, now a staff writer at The Atlantic. He’s the author of 10 books, including The Unwinding: An Inner History of the New America — which won the National Book Award — and Our Man: Richard Holbrooke and the End of the American Century. His new novel is called The Emergency. It’s a parable of our polarized times — and a deeply unsettling one.

For two clips of our convo — on the clarity of Orwell’s writing, and the savior complex of the woke — head to our YouTube page.

Other topics: raised by two Stanford professors; his dad accused of fascism by his leftist students and red-baited by the right; his dad’s stroke and subsequent suicide at a young age; George’s time in the Peace Corps; how Orwell’s Homage to Catalonia “saved me”; entering journalism at 40; reporting in Iraq; Orwell’s contempt for elites; Auden and Spender; the ideologies of intellectuals; the young turning on their elders; the summer of 2020; Camus’ La Peste; January 6; Orwell’s bigotries; his love for the countryside and common decency; Animal Farm; Nineteen Eighty-Four; Hitchens; utopianism; Nietzsche and slave morality; Fukuyama and boredom; the collapse of religion; intra-elite competition; Mamdani; the Gaza protests; virtue signaling; struggle sessions; mobs on social media; the loss of gatekeepers; the queer takeover of the gay rights movement; the brutality of meritocracy; Nick Fuentes; Trump’s multi-racial win; his Cabinet picks as trolling; the utter capitulation of Vance; Haidt and smartphones; and our post-literate democracy.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Shadi Hamid in defense of US interventionism, Simon Rogoff on the narcissism of pols, Arthur Brooks on the science of happiness, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right, and Jason Willick on trade and conservatism. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.

Michel is a human rights lawyer and author. He’s currently a lecturer at Columbia Law School, where he teaches national security law and jurisprudence. He’s also a contributing editor at Lawfare. His latest book is The Light of Battle: Eisenhower, D-Day, and the Birth of the American Superpower — an accessible, racy account of the run-up to D-Day, along with fascinating snapshots of his entire career.

For two clips of our convo — why FDR picked Eisenhower to orchestrate D-Day, and why he’s the antithesis of Trump — head to our YouTube page.

Other topics: Michel raised by a single mom in Allentown who became an Allentown DA; his scholarship to Oxford for computational linguistics; his work on human rights and defending Gitmo detainees; John Adams and due process; the Dish’s coverage of torture; the ways Eisenhower was misunderstood; his self-effacement; his religious pacifist parents; his abusive dad; his Horatio Alger story; Kansas conservatism; the knee injury that ended his football stardom at West Point; the scandal that nearly ended his career early on; the scarlet fever that killed his son; his early friendship with Patton; his intellectual mentor Fox Conner; Ike a protege of MacArthur until they soured on each other; his moderation and suspicion of ideology; his workaholism and stoicism; Pearl Harbor; his uneasy relationship with FDR; unexpectedly picked over George Marshall to lead D-Day; his knack for building consensus; winning over Monty and the other Brits; Churchill’s antics and his opposition to a Normandy landing; haunted by Gallipoli; the Atlantic Wall; Rommel; shouting matches at the Cairo Conference; Ike’s quiet charisma; the alleged affair with his Irish driver Kay Summersby; and how the weather nearly ruined D-Day.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: George Packer on his Orwell-inspired novel, Shadi Hamid on US power abroad, Simon Rogoff on the narcissism of pols, Jason Willick on trade and conservatism, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right, and Arthur Brooks on the science of happiness. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.