For centuries, modern science has relied on the scientific method to better understand the world around us. While helpful in many contexts, the scientific method is also objective, controlled, and reductionist – often breaking down complex systems into smaller parts for analysis and isolating subjects to test hypotheses. In contrast, indigenous wisdom is deeply contextual, rooted in lived experience, and emphasizes a reciprocal, integrated relationship with the rest of the natural world, viewing all parts of the system as interconnected. What becomes possible when we combine the strengths of each of these knowledge systems as we navigate humanity's biggest challenges?

In this episode, Nate is joined by Rosa Vásquez Espinoza, a Peruvian chemical biologist with Andean-Amazonian indigenous roots, to discuss how she is actively merging modern science and indigenous knowledge through innovative research in the Amazon Rainforest. Rosa explains how the integration of these two ways of knowing unveil more effective paths forward for conservation and ecological wisdom that simultaneously offer economic opportunity for the people who live there. She also shares her biggest successes to date bringing this vision to life, including documenting and protecting Earth's oldest known bee, the stingless bee.

Were the indigenous people of ancient cultures the original scientists? How can modern science learn from indigenous knowledge – and vice versa? And, rather than siloing ourselves into one 'right' way of seeing the world, what types of insights become possible when we learn to embrace the validity and importance of multiple ways of learning and knowing?

(Conversation recorded on October 22nd, 2025)

About Rosa Vásquez Espinoza:

Dr. Rosa Vásquez Espinoza is a Peruvian chemical biologist, National Geographic Explorer, and award-winning artist whose work bridges indigenous knowledge and modern science to protect the Amazon Rainforest and its communities. With Andean-Amazonian indigenous roots, she is the founder of Amazon Research Internacional, where she has pioneered groundbreaking research on extreme Amazonian ecosystems and biodiversity, while advocating for policies that recognize the intrinsic value of nature.

Rosa was the first microbial explorer of the Amazonian Boiling River, led the first chemical analysis of stingless bees and their medicinal honey in Peru, and contributed to scientific advancements that supported Peru's Law 32235, granting legal protection to stingless bees for the first time. Her work as an International Ambassador for the Ashaninka people further highlights her commitment to conservation and indigenous advocacy. She also co-authored the first scientific paper with Ashaninka leaders, blending traditional wisdom with modern science to safeguard the rainforest.

Rosa's passion for exploration and conservation is reflected in her new book, The Spirit of the Rainforest: How Indigenous Wisdom and Scientific Curiosity Reconnects Us to the Natural World, which is available now.

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In this episode, Nate weaves personal reflections into an exploration of the human predicament, unpacking a series of chronological insights that have reshaped his worldview. What began years ago as an investigation into oil has morphed into a deep lifelong journey into the complex web of energy, psychology, evolution, and systems that drive today's society. By sharing stories and realizations from his own life, whether it's the debunking of Wall Street energy illusions or unpacking how sexual selection is often as important a behavioral driver as natural selection, Nate invites listeners to step back and see the human story through a much wider lens.

This episode combines Nate's own evolution of understanding with the overarching narrative of The Great Simplification, speaking to what it means to be human in a dichotomous era of abundance and depletion, of numbness and awakening. It is perhaps more important than ever to be able to see our civilization through this wider perspective: not just as a disparate collection of individuals, but as a living – and learning – superorganism standing at the crossroads of deep time.

How might our understanding of progress change if we saw energy, not money, as the true currency of life? What would it mean to live with full awareness of our interconnectedness with the world and systems around us? And could this moment in history mark the shedding of some of the evolutionary impulses that ensured our survival, in favor of a new kind of planetary wisdom?

(Recorded November 10, 2025)

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The severity of the climate crisis continues to deepen, despite the increased use of renewable energy sources and international policies attempting otherwise. Even as emissions reduction efforts continue, our world faces more extreme weather, sea level rise, and human health impacts, all of which are projected to accelerate in the coming decades. This raises an important but controversial question: at what point might more drastic interventions, like geoengineering, become necessary in order to cool the planet?

In this episode, Nate interviews Professor Ted Parson about solar geoengineering (specifically stratospheric aerosol injection) as a potential response to severe climate risks. They explore why humanity may need to consider deliberately cooling Earth by spraying reflective particles in the upper atmosphere, how the technology would work, as well as the risks and enormous governance challenges involved. Ted emphasizes the importance of having these difficult conversations now, so that we're prepared for the wide range of climate possibilities in the future.

How does stratospheric aerosol injection actually work? What is the likelihood that a major nation (or rogue billionaire) might employ this approach in the next thirty years? What ethical, moral, and biophysical concerns should we consider as we weigh the costs and benefits of further altering Earth's planetary balance?

About Ted Parson:

Edward A. (Ted) Parson is Dan and Rae Emmett Professor of Environmental Law and Faculty Director of the Emmett Institute on Climate Change and the Environment at the University of California, Los Angeles. Parson studies international environmental law and policy, the societal impacts and governance of disruptive technologies including geoengineering and artificial intelligence, and the political economy of regulation.

His most recent books are The Science and Politics of Global Climate Change (with Andrew Dessler), and A Subtle Balance: Evidence, Expertise, and Democracy in Public Policy and Governance, 1970-2010. His 2003 book, Protecting the Ozone Layer: Science and Strategy, won the Sprout Award of the International Studies Association and is widely recognized as the authoritative account of the development of international cooperation to protect the ozone layer.

In addition to his academic positions, Parson has worked and consulted for the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, the Office of Technology Assessment of the U.S. Congress, the Privy Council Office of the Government of Canada, and the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (IIASA).

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