Danielle takes us on a romp through change management, starting, as with all good contrarians, with a challenge to the idea of ‘change management’ itself.

Some of the ideas covered:

• Change is happening all the time in government, not just during formal "change management" periods
• Most people dislike uncertainty rather than change itself
• Mission and values-driven staff struggle most with macro changes that shift agency direction
• Medium-level changes (like new systems) are often underestimated and underfunded
• The "don't be a dickhead rule" isn't enough—change management is genuinely difficult
• Leaders should listen carefully to "change resistors" who may be flagging legitimate risks
• Administrative foundations must be solid before change begins (position descriptions, contracts, etc.)
• Different professional groups (lawyers, scientists, policy officers) respond differently to change
• Maintaining a stable core while being honest about what's changing helps navigate transitions.

Referenced in this episode:

• If Books Could Kill pod on Who Moved My Cheese?

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Our first live show at the wildly successful ANZSOG NRCOP Conference in Brisbane August 2025.

The conversation tackles head-on the structural disconnections between our regulatory and policy systems, particularly in federated models like early childhood education. How do we reconcile a Commonwealth pouring billions into subsidies while state-based quality regulators remain chronically underfunded? What happens when funding accessibility doesn't come with proportionate strengthening of quality oversight?

Most revealing is the discussion about regulatory independence versus political interference. While statutory independence is crucial for regulatory integrity, our panelists acknowledge the reality that regulators remain part of government—subject to ministerial directions, government resourcing decisions, and public sector constraints.

This creates a challenging balance that every regulator must navigate daily.

Alison leaves with the best advice for all emerging regulators - find your people, people who you can trust and you can talk with and test your thinking.

Referenced in this episode:

• James Shipton The Regulatory State: Faults, Flaws and False Assumptions
• NRCoP 2025 National Conference Regulation 2025 to 2050: Disruption, Change and Continuity

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

What makes someone qualified to be a minister? In this candid conversation with Tom Koutsantonis, South Australia's longest-serving current parliamentarian, Danielle explores the fascinating intersection where political leadership meets public administration.

Drawing on his remarkable career spanning multiple portfolios including Treasury, Energy, and Transport, Koutsantonis takes us behind the curtain of ministerial decision-making.

He dispels the myth that ministers need specialised expertise in their portfolio areas, arguing instead that their authority comes from democratic mandate and demonstrated competence rather than academic credentials.

The discussion offers a masterclass in policy implementation, particularly during times of crisis.

Koutsantonis shares the stark reality of South Australia's 2016 energy blackout, where conventional thinking had to be abandoned for bold action. "It was Jay and I just saying 'I don't care what you think,'" he recalls of overriding resistant public servants to implement transformative energy solutions. This candid account reveals how decisive leadership can break through entrenched bureaucratic thinking when circumstances demand it.

Public servants will find particular value in Koutsantonis's insights on ministerial briefings. Despite modern trends toward abbreviated formats, he staunchly defends detailed written briefings: "If ministers aren't reading past the first three lines, it's to their detriment." His perspective offers reassurance that thorough policy work remains essential to good governance.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In this episode, Danielle, Caroline and Alison look at ANOTHER big ICT transformation project, with enormous human impacts and a long and expensive clean up.

The Queensland Health payroll system failure ranks as one of Australia's worst public administration disasters, costing taxpayers $1.2 billion and leaving 78,000 healthcare workers without proper pay.

What began as a $98 million routine upgrade became a case study in governance failure, mismanaged procurement, and the dangers of outsourcing critical government functions without maintaining proper oversight. IBM was actually barred from taking Queensland government work for its involvement in the scandal.

In this episode we revisit some lessons with a sharper eye on lessons including:

• It’s easy to get out of touch with what matters to your workforce - and payroll is *the* most important back end function
• The critical question of identifying how much inaccuracy you are willing to live with before accepting a system
• Contract management is critical - and never sign a release from liability just to get the contractor to keep working
• Generalists can’t stand back from ICT projects

Referenced in this episode

• Richard Chesterman QC Queensland Health Payroll System Commission of Inquiry (2013)
• The Radical How’s recommendation to shift procurement so that we buy or rent services that support teams, not simply to whom outcomes are outsourced“

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In this episode, we dive into Danielle’s favourite topic - work place flexibility. Public servants working from home has become a visible fault line in Australian politics and media, revealing deeper questions about productivity, surveillance, and trust in our workplaces. The convenience culture debate exposes how work design impacts everything from gender equity to regional development.

Danielle, Alison and Caroline unpack the following:

• That COVID forced rapid technology deployment and showed flexible work was more feasible than previously claimed
• The way in which working from home discussions often get unhelpfully gendered, limiting broader conversations about work design
• The leadership capability gaps revealed in the "if I can't see them, how do I know they're working" mindset
• How intentional communication becomes even more important in hybrid or remote environments
• Why the topic has a special valence in relation to the public service, and public expectations.

Referenced in the episode :

• The work of Professor Carol Kulik on the importance of autonomy in the workplace
• Worksafe Australia’s advice on the psychosocial hazards, including low job control, poor support and lack of role clarity.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

What if the real problem in public service reform isn't what we're trying to do, but how we're trying to do it? Caroline, Danielle, and Alison dive deep into a revolutionary approach to government change by examining The Radical How – a framework published by UK innovation foundation Nesta.

The conversation unpacks three core principles that could transform public service:

• start small and test assumptions early rather than pretending to know all answers upfront;
• build genuinely multidisciplinary teams instead of working in silos; and
• focus relentlessly on outcomes for people rather than system outputs.

Through concrete examples like COVID testing in the UK and reflections on infrastructure projects that changed course mid-development, we illuminate both the potential and challenges of this approach.

But implementing this "radical how" faces significant barriers – from political imperatives that demand certainty to procurement systems that reward the wrong things.

We grapple with tough questions about experimenting in people's lives, gaining social license for change, and communicating complex approaches in simple ways.

We reflect on how federalism already offers a natural experiment in policy diversity across Australian jurisdictions, though we rarely harness its full potential.

Referenced in the episode

• NESTA The Radical How
• The radical 1960s schools experiment that created a whole new alphabet - and left thousands of children unable to spell
• Rick Morton Smoking data taken down after link to vape ban
• Our previous episode on Pink Batts and Robodebt - lessons not learned

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Tom Loosemore of Public Digital was instrumental in the capital R Reset of Universal Credit.

In this interview, he tells Caroline there were no beanbags, but a lot of multi-D.

This interview adds nuance and richness to the picture sketched in our previous Universal Credit episodes. Some of the key insights include:

• Fundamental problem of the original approach was thinking of Universal Credit as a technology challenge rather than a complex policy, operational, and design challenge
• The first phase of system design suffered from incorrect data models, overly complex contracting arrangements, and thousands of untested assumptions
• Reset team created a small, multidisciplinary team, outside main DWP building to establish psychological safety
• Clear ministerial outcome statement ("more people in more work more of the time") provided crucial North Star
• Testing real service with 100 users through creative use of secondary legislation before wider rollout
• Radical shift was to understand that the core feature of Universal Credit was how to cope with change of circumstances, not signing on or signing off
• Senior leaders like Neil Couling protected teams from political interference while maintaining ministerial accountability
• Adaptable culture allowed 9-10 policy/technology changes daily during COVID crisis
• Digital transformation requires outcomes focus, multidisciplinary teams, and continuous testing of assumptions
• System proved sustainability by withstanding unprecedented change in both demand and policy over time

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In this second episode on Universal Credit, we talk about how the team transitioned from catastrophic failure to remarkable success.

We cover:

• The barriers to test and learn - from the need for certainty by leaders, to Treasury requirements for business cases, to the need to support Ministers
• The lessons learnt by the 10 year in role SRO Neil Couling [sorry CCB called you Neil Coulson!!] - including ‘avoid the tyranny of the timetable’
• Whether test and learn will be something younger generations find easier to manage than us Gen X-ers
• The glory of farewell speeches, inspired by Iain Duncan-Smith’s resignation letter.

Referenced in this episode:

• The Institute for Government’s event From disaster to completion?
• Andrew Solomon’s book Far from the Tree

Cover art is from Nesta’s The Radical How.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!