The Leadership Podcast Podcast By Jan Rutherford and Jim Vaselopulos experts on leadership development cover art

The Leadership Podcast

The Leadership Podcast

By: Jan Rutherford and Jim Vaselopulos experts on leadership development
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We interview great leaders, review the books they read, and speak with highly influential authors who study them.Copyright © 2016-2025 Rafti Advisors, LLC & Self Reliant Leadership, LLC - All Rights Reserved. Economics Management Management & Leadership
Episodes
  • TLP499: You're Charging for the Wrong Thing with Joe Pine

    TLP499: You're Charging for the Wrong Thing with Joe Pine
    Feb 18 2026
    Joe Pine is an internationally recognized author, speaker, and advisor, best known for The Experience Economy and his latest work, The Transformation Economy. In this episode, Joe explains why the market is finally ready—25 years later—for the shift to the transformation economy. He walks through the evolution of economic value, from commodities to goods, services, experiences, and now transformations, and makes the case that businesses must stop charging for inputs and start charging for outcomes. Joe introduces the four spheres of transformation—Health & Wellbeing, Wealth & Prosperity, Knowledge & Wisdom, and Purpose & Meaning—and argues that the true role of business is human flourishing: helping people become who they're meant to be. Profit isn't the goal; it's the scorecard. We also explore "encapsulation"—preparation, reflection, and integration—and why it's the key to turning experiences into lasting change. Joe breaks down why outcomes-based pricing is both the hardest shift and the biggest opportunity for transformation-driven companies. In this conversation, you'll learn how to spot transformation opportunities in your business, move beyond time-based pricing, and align what you charge with what customers actually value. Find episode 499 on The Leadership Podcast, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Joe Pine on You're Charging for the Wrong Thing with Joe Pine https://bit.ly/TLP-499 Key Takeaways [04:04] Joe explains why the world is finally ready for the transformation economy after 25 years of people asking when he'd write this book. [09:11] The four spheres of transformation: Health & Wellbeing, Wealth & Prosperity, Knowledge & Wisdom, and Purpose & Meaning—and why almost every business can find themselves in at least one. [12:59] The difference between fitness centers (charging for time as an experience) versus personal trainers (instilling discipline for transformation). [17:42] Why companies must eventually align what they charge for with what customers value—and how this drives the shift to outcomes-based pricing. [22:09] Joe introduces "invitational transformations"—experiences that invite people to transform their identity (like the Guinness Storehouse or Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library). [26:38] Human flourishing defined: the extent to which people are who they're meant to be. This is the raison d'être of business. [34:09] The concept of encapsulation: Preparation (before the experience), Reflection (after), and Integration (ongoing)—the framework that turns experiences into transformations. [35:59] How Joe wrote the book on Substack, getting real-time feedback from subscribers that fundamentally changed key frameworks in the book. [44:18] Joe's vision for transformation businesses: charge for demonstrated outcomes, foster human flourishing, and recognize that profits measure how well you help people flourish—not the end goal itself. [46:46] And remember..."The greatest danger in times of turbulence is not the turbulence; it is to act with yesterday's logic. Transformation begins with a change in mindset." — Peter Drucker Quotable Quotes "You are what you charge for. If you charge for undifferentiated stuff, you're in the commodities business. If you charge for demonstrated outcomes that your customers achieve, you're in the transformation business." "Eventually you have to align what you charge for with what your customers value. Let me say it again: Eventually you have to align what you charge for with what your customers value." "Fostering human flourishing is the raison d'être of business, period. That's why business exists—to help people flourish." "Human flourishing is the extent to which people are who they're meant to be." "The irony is of course that you may be offering a transformation guarantee, but that's exactly what you can't actually do. You can't guarantee a transformation. However, the best way to get it to happen is to offer a guarantee." "Profits are never the end. They're always the measurement by which you achieve the ends of human flourishing." These are the books mentioned in this episode Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Joe Pine Website | www.strategichorizons.com Joe Pine X | @joepine Joe Pine LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/joepine TLP004: Joe Pine - Visionary Leadership Instilling Purpose
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    48 mins
  • TLP498: Why Grit Isn't Enough: Rethinking Resilience in Leadership

    TLP498: Why Grit Isn't Enough: Rethinking Resilience in Leadership
    Feb 11 2026
    Oli Raison, co-founder of Safarini Leadership, designs immersive leadership expeditions in Kenya that combine cultural exchange with Samburu elders, wilderness trekking, and deep reflective coaching. In this conversation, Oli challenges one of leadership's most entrenched assumptions: that resilience is about individual grit and mental toughness. Drawing on the Samburu concept of naboisho—interdependence—he shows how real resilience is built through collective support, not solo endurance. He also names the single most important question leaders need to ask when entering any new culture or organization: What assumptions am I making? The catch? Most assumptions are invisible to us because they feel like "normal." Oli also explores why many wilderness and offsite leadership experiences fail to create lasting change, and shares his solution: a three-phase transformation framework—preparation, immersion, and integration—shaped by the work of past podcast guest, Joe Pine. This episode is an invitation to question your cultural defaults, rebuild genuine human connection, and develop a healthier relationship with time—so your leadership, and your team's resilience, can actually endure. Find episode 498 on The Leadership Podcast, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Oli Raison on Why Grit Isn't Enough: Rethinking Resilience in Leadership https://bit.ly/TLP-498 Key Takeaways [04:12] Oli says the leadership assumption consistently dismantled his resilience—the Samburu are resilient through interdependence called "naboisho," not grit. [07:00] Oli identifies profound learning as the importance of having a shared sense of purpose and a very strong shared set of values. [08:31] Oli responds that people have very different expectations of leadership in different cultures around the world. [10:11] Oli reveals the Samburu doesn't have words for anxiety or depression and you'll certainly never meet somebody who knows somebody who committed suicide. Oli notes loneliness is now as damaging for your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. [12:00] Oli responds I think too much comfort can be a bad thing and people get discombobulated easily if things don't go quite to plan. [14:35] Oli answers the critical question leaders should ask: what assumptions am I making? Because we don't realize we're making assumptions. [17:07] Oli explains African societies have a fundamentally different understanding of time where there's always enough time. [20:10] Oli explains the Samburu are very spiritual people connected with their ancestors and you're also connected with your descendants. [22:30] Oli says mindset adjustment happens organically from just being offline during 10-day expeditions with six days of camel-supported trekking. [24:53] Oli describes their three-phase structure: preparation, immersion, and integration with coaching sessions at two, four, and six weeks after. [29:20] Oli responds his long-term impact is about flourishing, particularly helping men dealing with anxiety, depression, and suicidality. [31:43] Oli states his aspiration: how can we create workplaces, organizations and teams that flourish? Because that's when people really do their best work. [33:45] Jan shares his realization about keeping fingers on the keyboard versus closing the laptop because the most important thing is that person in front of you. [35:56] And remember..."One way to get the most out of life is to look upon it as an adventure." - William Feather Quotable Quotes "The Samburu, what makes them so resilient is this concept of interdependence, this reliance, this collective reliance on one another...if my cattle get wiped out because of a really challenging drought, I know that my neighbors are going to step in and they're going to give me some of their cattle." "Naboisho is a word in their language which kind of roughly translates to coming together or unity. And they often say things like 'we are because they are,' that we are all sort of in this together." "This is a society that doesn't have words for anxiety or depression. And you'll certainly never meet somebody who knows somebody who committed suicide...loneliness is now as damaging for your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day." "In the west, we think of time as a commodity. We think of time as something that can be saved, it can be wasted, it can be lost. And as a result of that, I feel that time is the master of us and we are not the master of time." "The Samburu always say there's always enough time because they don't think of time as this continuous thing...time occurs when events happen, it's more relational and it's more eventful." "What assumptions am I making? And this is tricky, right, because a lot of the time we don't realize we're making assumptions." "We don't need to be experts, but we do need to be detectives...what assumptions am I making that might be getting in my way?" "All of this technology is actually ...
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    37 mins
  • TLP497: Why Most Leaders Are Using AI Wrong—and How to Fix It

    TLP497: Why Most Leaders Are Using AI Wrong—and How to Fix It
    Feb 4 2026
    Geoff Woods is founder of AI Leadership and #1 international bestselling author of The AI Driven Leader: Harnessing AI to Make Faster, Smarter Decisions. In this episode, Geoff introduces the CRIT framework: "Context, Role, Interview, Task." He also reveals why most leaders are still acting like industrial workers—showing up on time, following orders, doing repetitive tasks—when machines now do that work better than humans. He shares his CRIT framework for turning AI into your most valuable thought partner and explains why AI isn't replacing your job. Geoff demonstrates how to collapse three months of work into 30 minutes, shares a painful leadership lesson, and breaks down why 99% of AI use cases are distractions from the 20% that actually drives results. Discover practical strategies for making faster, smarter decisions, getting AI to ask YOU the right questions instead of the other way around, and reclaiming what makes you uniquely human in an AI-driven world. Find episode 497 on The Leadership Podcast, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Geoff Woods on Why Most Leaders Are Using AI Wrong—and How to Fix It https://bit.ly/TLP-497 Key Takeaways [03:04] Geoff recounts pushing for a 250x revenue goal three months ago that "actually broke the team" and caused a key leader's resignation. [07:02] Geoff responds to whether "AI-enhanced" is better than "AI-driven" by saying leaders who don't use AI "are at a severe disadvantage." [10:21] Geoff explains his mindset as a family man first is rooted in "the questions you ask yourself determine your fate." [13:53] Geoff reveals the most common self-deception in leaders: "They put more focus on having the right answer than having the right question." [19:26] Geoff walks through applying the CRIT framework to Jim's niece Yvonne's question about AI for client lifecycle management. [26:31] Geoff says the missing link between reading the book and transformation is simple: "Whether they actually applied it." [28:16] Geoff explains decision-making isn't just go/no-go but asks three questions: "What's the upside? What's the downside? Am I willing to live with the downside?" [34:03] Geoff shares his controversial belief in extreme 80/20: "If it's not a 20% priority driving 80% of impact, then why are we wasting oxygen on it?" [39:17] Geoff's closing thought: "You are not what you do" and realizing this means "AI can only enhance you because it can never replace you." [42:27] And remember… "In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing. The next best thing you can do is the wrong thing. And the worst thing you can do is nothing." – Theodore Roosevelt Quotable Quotes "I don't ask AI questions. I make AI ask me questions. That's the core difference between me and everybody else." "Most people spend their career majoring in the minors. Nobody got promoted for being the best email checker in their company." "You are not what you do. The moment you realize what you do is not who you are, you start asking better questions." "If you want to 10X your growth, you've got to stop doing 80% of what you currently do and reinvest that effort into higher capabilities." "The questions you ask yourself determine your fate. They determine how you see the world." "I believe the purpose of a goal is not to achieve a result. It's to be a compass to inform who you can become." "Throughout history, technology has made the value of certain skills skyrocket and the value of certain skills plummet." "AI is not going to take your job. But somebody who knows how to use AI as a thinking partner absolutely will." These are the books mentioned in this episode Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Geoff Woods Website | https://www.aileadership.com/ Geoff Woods X| @geoffwoods Geoff Woods LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/company/ai-thought-leadership
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    43 mins
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