Brian McLaren talks about his new book, 'Life After Doom: Wisdom and Courage for a World Falling Apart'. He and Joe discuss how denial is exhausting, why our enemies are not people, but systems and how we all need to exercise our power to show up. 'Once you discover the God of love you fire all your other gods'. Also, remember, humans are a mess, but the birds are awesome.

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Mentioned in this episode:

• Nick Page: How to be wise: Confessions of a recovering idiot
• Clangers
• Clangers on QI
• Brian McLaren
• Centre for Action and Contemplation
• Life After Doom: Wisdom and Courage for a World Falling Apart

This week we discuss the relationship between human skills and endeavour and the work of God. Or as Nick put it, 'Why does God get all the praise when I did all the work?' Does the fact that we live in a God-filled universe mean that the Divine should get all the credit? Or, by dismissing humanity's input are we actually devaluing the fact we are made in the image of God? And if that sounds too deep, there's a lot of custard.

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Mentioned in this episode:

• Custard
• Freud's Last Session
• C. S. Lewis on praise

There's a lot about depth this week. We talk about dusting off the Bible and reading more deeply, and how the mid-faith crisis can be accompanied by different emotions, including the desire to go deeper. Oh, and Nick has been down a well. As if that wasn't deep enough we discuss our target demographic, Joe's bulging portfolio and the way in which so much of the church has taken Jesus' teaching on leadership and done the complete opposite. Warning: contains anger, bewilderment, grief and elephants.

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• Contact the podcast through your email machine

Mentioned in this episode:

• Let There Be Light
• Little Gidding