Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Matthew Bianco of the Circe Institute discuss the second part of Plato's Gorgias--the dialogue between Socrates and Polus—Gorgias’ spirited, “colt-like” student who bursts in at 461b accusing his own teacher of being “too ashamed” to admit rhetoric needs no justice, only the power to persuade.

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What follows is pure Platonic fireworks: Socrates refuses long speeches, forces short questions, and delivers the unforgettable pastry-baker analogy (462–466a), branding rhetoric as mere flattery—like cookery or cosmetics for the soul—that “has no speech to give about the nature of the things” (465a). Polus agrees with several premises yet recoils when Socrates concludes that doing injustice is worse than suffering it, and the unpunished tyrant is the unhappiest man alive (478–479).

The conversation spirals into a shocking vision of punishment as medicine for the soul: the wrongdoer should run to the judge “as to a doctor” (480b). Throughout, the hosts explore whether rhetoric itself is evil or only rhetoric divorced from philosophy, using the tripartite soul as a foothold—Gorgias as corrupted intellect, Polus as honor-craving thumos, Callicles (next week) as unashamed appetite—while Socrates models a just soul governing all three.

Dr. Bianco brings fresh insight into Socrates’ tailored pedagogy and the happiness that only a philosophical rhetoric can truly serve.

Key Themes & Search Tags:

• Plato's Gorgias

• Polus

• Rhetoric vs Philosophy

• Tripartite Soul

• Doing injustice vs suffering injustice

• Punishment as medicine

• Pastry-baker analogy

• Classical Education

• Socrates pedagogy

• Pleonexia

• Happiness eudaimonia

"In war and battle, this is the way to do your part."

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick is joined by the Athenian Stranger and Johnathan Bi to introduce the Gorgias and discuss the first part: the dialogue of Gorgias and Socrates.

What begins as a polite inquiry into the nature of rhetoric erupts into a war for the soul of Athens—and for every reader seeking the good life.

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Athenian Stranger frames the conflict as two competing “technologies” of speech: Gorgias’ art that grants “freedom for oneself and empire over everyone else” (452d) versus Socrates’ dialectical practice that knows “the natures and causes of things” (464b–465a). The dialogue’s three-part structure—shortest with reserved Gorgias, medium with spirited Polus, longest with shameless Callicles—spirals downward, exposing pleonexia (infinite grasping desire) beneath all three souls.

Dcn. Harrison Garlick underscores the dialogue’s raw honesty: Athenian youth, like us, faced a nihilistic void after the gods’ decline, craving tyranny over truth. Philosophical gems abound—“better to be harmed than harm,” “better to be punished than escape justice”—while the pastry-baker analogy brands rhetoric without philosophy as mere flattery.

The world that Socrates is engaging with is far more like our world than I think I realized… nihilism as a modern phenomenon? You see this really with the young men of Athens too.” - Dcn. Harrison Garlick

“We all have erotic longings. The question is, they of the noble things that separate us from the beasts or are they of the bodily pleasures?” - Athenian Stranger

Next episode: Polus defends raw power with Dr. Matthew Bianco (Circe Institute).

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Daniel Wagner dive into Plato’s Meno as a masterclass in education, contrasting Meno’s stagnant, power-seeking sophistry with his slave boy’s humble, rapid learning during the famous geometry demonstration.

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They explore aporia (perplexity) as a vital pedagogical tool requiring courage and humility, the theory of recollection as a rhetorical device rather than doctrine, and the distinction between stable knowledge (phronesis) and fleeting right opinion (doxa).

Ultimately, virtue is teachable as knowledge, but demands active practice from the student—explaining why even great statesmen like Pericles failed to pass it to their sons. The dialogue emerges as a warning: don’t be a Meno; embrace the discomfort of not-knowing to pursue truth.

“Don’t be a Meno.” - Dr. Wagner

“Learning isn’t just rote memorization… it’s ordered toward nous – intellectual insight into reality.” - Dr. Wagner

“Classical education is the best model of actually conforming the mind to reality." - Dcn. Harrison Garlick

Read Plato’s Meno to see education in action: a proud sophist stays stuck while a humble slave boy learns geometry in minutes, proving that real learning demands courage, humility, and active pursuit of truth. It’s the perfect wake-up call—don’t be a Meno.

HALLOWEEN SPECIAL! In this episode, Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Joseph Boyne explore G.K. Chesterton's short story 'The Chief Mourner of Marne,' discussing its themes, characters, and moral implications.

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They delve into the significance of transformative texts in education, the role of Father Brown as a detective, and the interplay between Gothic literature and Halloween motifs. The conversation highlights the importance of Christian charity and the complexities of forgiveness, ultimately reflecting on the deeper meanings within Chesterton's work and the nature of storytelling.

Keywords: G.K. Chesterton, Father Brown, The Chief Mourner of Marne, Halloween, Gothic literature, Christian charity, transformative texts, literature analysis, podcast, education

The Phaedo is a beautiful dialogue! Join Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Christopher Frey, McFarland Professor of Philosophy at the University of Tulsa, as they conclude their exploration of Plato’s Phaedo, a profound dialogue capturing Socrates’ final hours and his arguments for the soul’s immortality.

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In this episode, Dcn. Garlick and Dr. Frey dive into the second half of the text (72e–118a), unpacking the recollection and affinity arguments, objections from Simmias and Cebes, the concept of misology, the final cause argument, the myth of the afterlife, and Socrates’ enigmatic final words.

Episode Segments

Recollection Argument (72e–77a)

• Socrates argues that learning is recalling preexistent knowledge of forms: “Coming to know something… is actually recollecting.”
• Sense experience, like seeing equal sticks, triggers recollection of perfect forms.
• This suggests the soul exists before birth.
• The argument for forms is distinct from recollection.

Affinity Argument (78b–80b)

• The soul resembles forms, being “divine, immortal, intelligible, uniform,” unlike the mutable body: “The body is… mortal, multiform, dissolvable.”
• Forms are simple and unchanging: “Beauty itself doesn’t change… It would have to be something that isn’t visible.”

Riveting Image and the Philosophical Life (83d)

• Pleasures and pains “rivet the soul to the body and to weld them together."
• Socrates remains calm while others weep, embodying philosophical discipline: “He’s the philosopher… They’re too sunk, they’re too mired in that bodily.”

Objections by Simmias and Cebes (84c–88b)

• Simmias’ harmony view posits the soul as an effect of bodily organization.
• Cebes’ cloak objection suggests the soul may wear out: “Why couldn’t there be a last time which… the soul does eventually wear out?”
• Socrates counters that the soul causes life, not the body.

Misology and the Value of Argument (88c–89e)

• Socrates warns against misology, hating reasoned argument: “There’s no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse.”

Final Cause Argument (95b–107a)

• Socrates’ autobiography reveals dissatisfaction with materialist explanations, seeking purpose.
• The soul’s essential life ensures immortality: “The soul is alive itself in a way that it can’t be taken away… As the fire cannot actually receive coldness, neither can the soul actually receive death.”

Myth of the Afterlife (107d–114c)

• Describes a stratified earth with hollows and Tartarus.
• Souls face judgment or purgation.
• Details may not be literal but encourage virtue.

Socrates’ Death and Final Words (114d–118a)

• Socrates drinks hemlock, called a “pharmacon."
• Final words suggest death as healing: “Crito, we ought to offer a cock to Asclepius… The malady for which he wants to be cured is embodied life itself.”
• Inspires hope, especially for Christians: “If someone like Socrates… can enter it with this much fortitude… how much greater should our hope be?”

Key Takeaways

• The Phaedo’s arguments—recollection, affinity, and final cause—build a case for the soul’s immortality, though not airtight, urging a philosophical life: “The philosophical life is one in which you have to be comfortable with...

Today on Ascend: the Great Books Podcast, we are discussing Plato's Phaedo, or in ancient times, it had the subtitle of On the Soul. It tells of the death of Socrates and his various arguments for the immortality of the soul. The Phaedo is a complicated dialogue. It's a long dialogue, but it's very beautiful and very much worth the effort. So it merits a slow, attentive, and subtle read.

And to help us with this type of read, we are joined by Dr. Christopher Frey, a fantastic thinker who really is going to hold our hand and walk us through these various arguments of the immortality of soul. We're going to discuss the first part this week (up to the theory of recollection) and the second part next week.

So is it beautiful? Yes. Is it difficult? Also, yes, but it's very much worth your time. So join us today for an excellent conversation on Plato's Phaedo with Dr. Christopher Frey.

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Keywords: Plato, Phaedo, Socrates, immortality, philosophy, body and soul, great books, ancient philosophy, dialogue, death

Thank you for joining us!

Today, we are introducing Plato's Phaedo, "on the soul," with Alec Bianco of the Circe Institute and with Athenian Stranger. We'll discuss why to read the great books, why we read Plato, how you should read Plato, and why to read the Phaedo.

We then do a deep dive into the opening of the Phaedo, especially on the setting and the myth of Theseus-where a subtle, attentive read unearths a beautifully rich allusion. We'll end with some advice for first time readers of the Phaedo.

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NEXT TWO WEEKS we'll be joined by Dr. Christopher Frey of the University of Tulsa who will walk us argument by argument through the Phaedo. He's fantastic, don't miss them!

Thank you to all who support the podcast!

ALSO if you want some rich spiritual lessons rooted in the Christian tradition and the great books, go check out Dcn. Garlick at THE ASCENT.

In this episode, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Pavlos Papadopoulos dive into Plato’s Crito, a dialogue set in Socrates’ prison cell as he awaits execution. They explore Socrates’ refusal to escape, his debt of gratitude to Athens, and the tension between philosophy and the polis’s poetic traditions. Through engaging analysis, they unpack the dialogue’s themes of justice, piety, and civic obligation, offering insights for first-time readers and drawing parallels to modern liberal democracy.

Dr. Pavlos Papadopoulos, Assistant Professor of Humanities at Wyoming Catholic College, joins the episode. With a BA from St. John’s College and a PhD in politics from the University of Dallas, he brings expertise in Plato, having written his dissertation on the philosopher.

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Summary:

The questions explored about Plato’s Crito reveal key themes of justice, piety, gratitude, and the tension between philosophy and the polis. Socrates’ imprisonment, set against Athens’ cultural life governed by the poetic myth of Theseus, underscores the conflict between philosophical inquiry and the city’s traditional piety, highlighting philosophy’s precarious role in a society shaped by poetry.

His dream of a woman prophesying his arrival in Phthia, echoing Achilles’ fates, reframes his acceptance of death as a philosophical heroism, prioritizing justice over survival.

Crito’s arguments for escape, rooted in emotional appeals to public opinion and familial duty, contrast with Socrates’ rational defense of his obligation to Athens, articulated through the laws as a debt of gratitude that cannot be repaid, distinguishing his view of the city as a fatherland from modern social contract theory’s individualistic framework. The laws’ warning that escape would “destroy” the polis emphasizes the necessity of upholding civic order, while Athens’ allowance of philosophy, despite its antagonism, parallels liberal democracy’s permissive yet flawed support for diverse pursuits.

The references to the Corybantes and God at the dialogue’s end subtly integrate divine sanction with rational argument, affirming Socrates’ serene commitment to justice as both a philosophical and spiritual act, challenging first-time readers to consider the interplay of individual conscience, civic duty, and divine order in navigating moral dilemmas.

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