In the incredible final act of Plato’s Gorgias (481–527), Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Greg McBrayer (Ashland University, New Thinkery podcast) tackle the longest and most brutal confrontation: Socrates versus Callicles, the most shameless, most ambitious, and—as Greg insists—nastiest character in all of Plato.

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Callicles storms in threatening to “whoop Socrates in the mouth” and delivers the most radical claim yet: conventional justice is a sham invented by the weak; by nature the superior should rule, take more, and live without restraint—coining the first recorded “law of nature” in Western literature to mean might makes right (482e–484c).

Socrates flips the argument, forces Callicles to admit intelligence without self-control is mere cleverness, and reduces his unlimited-pleasure principle to absurdity with the leaky-jar and escalating vulgar examples (constant scratching, the catamite, 494–495), provoking Callicles’ outraged “Aren’t you ashamed?”—proof he still clings to the noble (kalon) despite his bravado.

At 503a Socrates finally reveals the two kinds of rhetoric: the shameful, flattering kind that seeks only pleasure, and the true, noble rhetoric that “makes the souls of citizens as good as possible” and strives to say “what is best” whether pleasant or painful—the kind Socrates claims to be the only Athenian practicing (521d).

When Callicles becomes completely recalcitrant, Socrates turns to the audience with the unforgettable myth of naked souls judged by dead judges (523a–527e): every injustice leaves visible scars no rhetoric or power can hide; the cosmos itself is ordered toward justice and will not allow injustice to triumph forever.

Athens is about to execute its only true statesman, but the myth promises that in the final reckoning Socrates’ just soul will shine while his accusers’ scarred souls stand exposed. The dialogue ends not with Callicles’ conversion but with Socrates’ quiet vindication: living justly is ultimately worth it, even in a city that kills its best citizen.

Next week: a short break from Plato for Flannery O’Connor’s “The Lame Shall Enter First.”

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Matthew Bianco of the Circe Institute discuss the second part of Plato's Gorgias--the dialogue between Socrates and Polus—Gorgias’ spirited, “colt-like” student who bursts in at 461b accusing his own teacher of being “too ashamed” to admit rhetoric needs no justice, only the power to persuade.

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What follows is pure Platonic fireworks: Socrates refuses long speeches, forces short questions, and delivers the unforgettable pastry-baker analogy (462–466a), branding rhetoric as mere flattery—like cookery or cosmetics for the soul—that “has no speech to give about the nature of the things” (465a). Polus agrees with several premises yet recoils when Socrates concludes that doing injustice is worse than suffering it, and the unpunished tyrant is the unhappiest man alive (478–479).

The conversation spirals into a shocking vision of punishment as medicine for the soul: the wrongdoer should run to the judge “as to a doctor” (480b). Throughout, the hosts explore whether rhetoric itself is evil or only rhetoric divorced from philosophy, using the tripartite soul as a foothold—Gorgias as corrupted intellect, Polus as honor-craving thumos, Callicles (next week) as unashamed appetite—while Socrates models a just soul governing all three.

Dr. Bianco brings fresh insight into Socrates’ tailored pedagogy and the happiness that only a philosophical rhetoric can truly serve.

Key Themes & Search Tags:

• Plato's Gorgias

• Polus

• Rhetoric vs Philosophy

• Tripartite Soul

• Doing injustice vs suffering injustice

• Punishment as medicine

• Pastry-baker analogy

• Classical Education

• Socrates pedagogy

• Pleonexia

• Happiness eudaimonia

"In war and battle, this is the way to do your part."

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick is joined by the Athenian Stranger and Johnathan Bi to introduce the Gorgias and discuss the first part: the dialogue of Gorgias and Socrates.

What begins as a polite inquiry into the nature of rhetoric erupts into a war for the soul of Athens—and for every reader seeking the good life.

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Visit Athenian Stranger.

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Athenian Stranger frames the conflict as two competing “technologies” of speech: Gorgias’ art that grants “freedom for oneself and empire over everyone else” (452d) versus Socrates’ dialectical practice that knows “the natures and causes of things” (464b–465a). The dialogue’s three-part structure—shortest with reserved Gorgias, medium with spirited Polus, longest with shameless Callicles—spirals downward, exposing pleonexia (infinite grasping desire) beneath all three souls.

Dcn. Harrison Garlick underscores the dialogue’s raw honesty: Athenian youth, like us, faced a nihilistic void after the gods’ decline, craving tyranny over truth. Philosophical gems abound—“better to be harmed than harm,” “better to be punished than escape justice”—while the pastry-baker analogy brands rhetoric without philosophy as mere flattery.

The world that Socrates is engaging with is far more like our world than I think I realized… nihilism as a modern phenomenon? You see this really with the young men of Athens too.” - Dcn. Harrison Garlick

“We all have erotic longings. The question is, they of the noble things that separate us from the beasts or are they of the bodily pleasures?” - Athenian Stranger

Next episode: Polus defends raw power with Dr. Matthew Bianco (Circe Institute).

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Daniel Wagner dive into Plato’s Meno as a masterclass in education, contrasting Meno’s stagnant, power-seeking sophistry with his slave boy’s humble, rapid learning during the famous geometry demonstration.

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They explore aporia (perplexity) as a vital pedagogical tool requiring courage and humility, the theory of recollection as a rhetorical device rather than doctrine, and the distinction between stable knowledge (phronesis) and fleeting right opinion (doxa).

Ultimately, virtue is teachable as knowledge, but demands active practice from the student—explaining why even great statesmen like Pericles failed to pass it to their sons. The dialogue emerges as a warning: don’t be a Meno; embrace the discomfort of not-knowing to pursue truth.

“Don’t be a Meno.” - Dr. Wagner

“Learning isn’t just rote memorization… it’s ordered toward nous – intellectual insight into reality.” - Dr. Wagner

“Classical education is the best model of actually conforming the mind to reality." - Dcn. Harrison Garlick

Read Plato’s Meno to see education in action: a proud sophist stays stuck while a humble slave boy learns geometry in minutes, proving that real learning demands courage, humility, and active pursuit of truth. It’s the perfect wake-up call—don’t be a Meno.

HALLOWEEN SPECIAL! In this episode, Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Joseph Boyne explore G.K. Chesterton's short story 'The Chief Mourner of Marne,' discussing its themes, characters, and moral implications.

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They delve into the significance of transformative texts in education, the role of Father Brown as a detective, and the interplay between Gothic literature and Halloween motifs. The conversation highlights the importance of Christian charity and the complexities of forgiveness, ultimately reflecting on the deeper meanings within Chesterton's work and the nature of storytelling.

Keywords: G.K. Chesterton, Father Brown, The Chief Mourner of Marne, Halloween, Gothic literature, Christian charity, transformative texts, literature analysis, podcast, education

The Phaedo is a beautiful dialogue! Join Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Christopher Frey, McFarland Professor of Philosophy at the University of Tulsa, as they conclude their exploration of Plato’s Phaedo, a profound dialogue capturing Socrates’ final hours and his arguments for the soul’s immortality.

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In this episode, Dcn. Garlick and Dr. Frey dive into the second half of the text (72e–118a), unpacking the recollection and affinity arguments, objections from Simmias and Cebes, the concept of misology, the final cause argument, the myth of the afterlife, and Socrates’ enigmatic final words.

Episode Segments

Recollection Argument (72e–77a)

• Socrates argues that learning is recalling preexistent knowledge of forms: “Coming to know something… is actually recollecting.”
• Sense experience, like seeing equal sticks, triggers recollection of perfect forms.
• This suggests the soul exists before birth.
• The argument for forms is distinct from recollection.

Affinity Argument (78b–80b)

• The soul resembles forms, being “divine, immortal, intelligible, uniform,” unlike the mutable body: “The body is… mortal, multiform, dissolvable.”
• Forms are simple and unchanging: “Beauty itself doesn’t change… It would have to be something that isn’t visible.”

Riveting Image and the Philosophical Life (83d)

• Pleasures and pains “rivet the soul to the body and to weld them together."
• Socrates remains calm while others weep, embodying philosophical discipline: “He’s the philosopher… They’re too sunk, they’re too mired in that bodily.”

Objections by Simmias and Cebes (84c–88b)

• Simmias’ harmony view posits the soul as an effect of bodily organization.
• Cebes’ cloak objection suggests the soul may wear out: “Why couldn’t there be a last time which… the soul does eventually wear out?”
• Socrates counters that the soul causes life, not the body.

Misology and the Value of Argument (88c–89e)

• Socrates warns against misology, hating reasoned argument: “There’s no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse.”

Final Cause Argument (95b–107a)

• Socrates’ autobiography reveals dissatisfaction with materialist explanations, seeking purpose.
• The soul’s essential life ensures immortality: “The soul is alive itself in a way that it can’t be taken away… As the fire cannot actually receive coldness, neither can the soul actually receive death.”

Myth of the Afterlife (107d–114c)

• Describes a stratified earth with hollows and Tartarus.
• Souls face judgment or purgation.
• Details may not be literal but encourage virtue.

Socrates’ Death and Final Words (114d–118a)

• Socrates drinks hemlock, called a “pharmacon."
• Final words suggest death as healing: “Crito, we ought to offer a cock to Asclepius… The malady for which he wants to be cured is embodied life itself.”
• Inspires hope, especially for Christians: “If someone like Socrates… can enter it with this much fortitude… how much greater should our hope be?”

Key Takeaways

• The Phaedo’s arguments—recollection, affinity, and final cause—build a case for the soul’s immortality, though not airtight, urging a philosophical life: “The philosophical life is one in which you have to be comfortable with...

Today on Ascend: the Great Books Podcast, we are discussing Plato's Phaedo, or in ancient times, it had the subtitle of On the Soul. It tells of the death of Socrates and his various arguments for the immortality of the soul. The Phaedo is a complicated dialogue. It's a long dialogue, but it's very beautiful and very much worth the effort. So it merits a slow, attentive, and subtle read.

And to help us with this type of read, we are joined by Dr. Christopher Frey, a fantastic thinker who really is going to hold our hand and walk us through these various arguments of the immortality of soul. We're going to discuss the first part this week (up to the theory of recollection) and the second part next week.

So is it beautiful? Yes. Is it difficult? Also, yes, but it's very much worth your time. So join us today for an excellent conversation on Plato's Phaedo with Dr. Christopher Frey.

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Keywords: Plato, Phaedo, Socrates, immortality, philosophy, body and soul, great books, ancient philosophy, dialogue, death

Thank you for joining us!

Today, we are introducing Plato's Phaedo, "on the soul," with Alec Bianco of the Circe Institute and with Athenian Stranger. We'll discuss why to read the great books, why we read Plato, how you should read Plato, and why to read the Phaedo.

We then do a deep dive into the opening of the Phaedo, especially on the setting and the myth of Theseus-where a subtle, attentive read unearths a beautifully rich allusion. We'll end with some advice for first time readers of the Phaedo.

Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule.

Visit our COLLECTION of written guides on the great books!

NEXT TWO WEEKS we'll be joined by Dr. Christopher Frey of the University of Tulsa who will walk us argument by argument through the Phaedo. He's fantastic, don't miss them!

Thank you to all who support the podcast!

ALSO if you want some rich spiritual lessons rooted in the Christian tradition and the great books, go check out Dcn. Garlick at THE ASCENT.