How would a Christian answer the Euthyphro dilemma? Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick is joined by Dr. Donald Prudlo, the Warren Professor of Catholic Studies at the University of Tulsa, to discuss Aquinas and the Euthyphro dilemma.

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Also, check our Dr. Prudlo's new books:

Governing Perfection (2024) - "In the beginning, God administrated." For as Donald Prudlo observes, "There can be no achievement without administration." In this book he seeks to restore the idea that while administration is necessary even in the institutional Church, holiness is not only possible for those charged with governance, but is a fulfillment and type of Christus Rector omnium, or "Christ, Ruler of all.

Merchant Saint: The Church, the Market, and the First Lay Canonization (2025) - Paul Voss and Donald Prudlo trace Western attitudes to money, merchants, and the market through 3,000 years of history. They focus their attention on one person in particular, Omobono of Cremona (1117–1197), as an axial figure in the wholesale reappraisal of the value of business, entrepreneurship, and white-collar work in Christian Europe.

In this conversation, Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Donald Prudlo delve into the Euthyphro dilemma, exploring its implications in both a polytheistic and monotheistic context. They discuss the importance of humor in philosophy, the historical context of Plato's works, and the relevance of the Euthyphro dilemma in modern culture. The dialogue emphasizes the need for a realist metaphysic and the dangers of a voluntaristic worldview, ultimately highlighting the significance of engaging with great books and philosophical texts to reclaim understanding and truth.

Keywords: Euthyphro Dilemma, Plato, Socratic Method, Philosophy, Monotheism, Aquinas, Realism, Volunteerism, Great Books

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Check out THE ASCENT for articles on Christian spirituality.

In this episode of the Ascend the Great Books podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick and guests delve into the complexities of Plato's Euthyphro, exploring themes of piety, morality, and the divine - including the famous "Euthyphro Dilemma."

The podcast welcomes back Dr. Joey Spencer, who serves as a tutor of theology, an archivist, and an expert in angels and demons.

Check out thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule and more!

Check out our collection of written guides on the great books!

Check our Part I of the Plato's Euthyphro if you missed it!

From the guide:

What is the Euthyphro Dilemma?

The Euthyphro Dilemma, introduced at 9(d), is the dialogue’s most famous section, where Socrates asks: “Is the pious being loved by the gods because it is pious? Or is it pious because it is being loved by the gods?” It is a question of causality. The first part or “horn” of the dilemma asks whether the pious is something objective loved by the gods, i.e., “is the pious being loved by the gods because it is pious?” The second horn of the dilemma asks whether the pious whatever the gods will, i.e., “or is it pious because it is being loved by the gods?” The two horns are mutually exclusive and present contrary philosophical views: objective versus subjective; or realism versus voluntarism. The Euthyphro dilemma is not reducible to issue of piety but represents a rhetoric template Socrates will have recourse to time and time again to determine whether the definition of a thing is something objective that is discovered or something subjective that is made. For example, the Euthyphro dilemma is often rewritten concerning the good: “Is the good being loved by the gods because it is good? Or is it good because it is being loved by the gods?” It is often written in a monotheistic manner as well: “Is the good being loved by God because it is good? Or is it good because it is being loved by God?”. The Euthyphro dilemma used here ferrets out the nature of piety and the divine, but it represents a greater dilemma that is foundational to human thought: realism versus voluntarism. To wit, is truth discovered or is it made?

What observations may be made about the first horn of the dilemma?

The first horn posits that piety is an objective reality, an independent Idea or Form, and is loved by the gods because of its intrinsic nature. As Deacon explains, piety is good and just in se, and thus the gods love it. The first horn presents a metaphysical reality in which concepts, like piety, have a true, objective universal definition. It represents Plato’s Ideas. Moreover, as Deacon notes, the first horn makes a comment about the divine as well—as the gods do not create piety but rather adhere to it. Like in Antigone, the gods are adhering to law or standard of goodness. Piety’s essence is not contingent on divine approval but is a standard to which the gods conform, as Thomas suggests, pointing to “a universal that stands outside them.” This is significant because it challenges the traditional Homeric view where the divine wills define morality, instead positing that the gods recognize piety’s goodness, as seen in Euthyphro’s earlier intuition that Zeus is “the most just” god, implying a standard of justice above the gods, as Dr. Grabowski notes.

Dr. Spencer comments that the Homeric tradition shows that the gods do not agree or otherwise adhere...

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, we are joined by Dcn. Garlick, Dr. Frank Grabowski, Thomas Lackey, and Dr. Joey Spencer to discuss the first part of Plato’s Euthyphro—a dialogue on piety.

Dr. Spencer is the diocesan Archivist for the Diocese of Tulsa, a tutor in Theology, and an expert in the theology of angels and demons.

We discuss the context of the dialogue and move into conversations on piety as a political problem, the role of imitating the divine in Greek religion, an introduction to Plato’s Ideas and its reception into Christianity, and even a brief aside on how angels understand Plato’s Ideas.

Check out thegreatbookspodcast.com for resources and schedule!

Check out our COLLECTION OF WRITTEN GUIDES TO THE GREAT BOOKS.

Check out THE ASCENT - a sister publication focusing on Christian spirituality, theosis, and sanctification - how does the soul ascend to God.

From the guide:

Why should you read the Euthyphro?

The Euthyphro is fundamentally “a dialogue about piety,” as Dcn. Harrison Garlick describes it, serving as an exploration of what piety truly means through a conversation between Socrates and Euthyphro. Dr. Frank Grabowski emphasizes its value as “a wonderful introduction to Platonic philosophy, Platonic literature,” highlighting how it features Socrates as the central figure and showcases “the Socratic method” in a clear and engaging way. Moments of “Socratic irony” are also evident, adding depth to understanding Socrates' approach, while the dialogue introduces Plato's search for the Ideas.

The dialogue is short and more straightforward, which makes it more ideal for first time readers than say the Republic or the Symposium. Its accessibility lies in its simplicity and a layered narrative, allowing readers to engage at their own intellectual level—focusing initially on key dilemmas but discovering more upon rereading—as Dcn. Harrison Garlick notes that “like most of Plato's narratives, the dialogues... bring layers... you can kind of grow with the text." For many, it's the first Platonic work encountered, often bundled with the Apology, Crito, and Phaedo as depictions of Socrates' last days.

What is the historical context for the Euthyphro?

The dramatic date of the Euthyphro is right before Socrates’ trial and execution in 399 BC. The composition date is estimated at 380 BC, but all composition dates should be accepted lightly. The dialogue takes place outside of the King Archon's court, a remnant of Athens' monarchical past, where a judge adjudicates on religious matters. Plato offers a conversation about piety, within its political context, right before his master is tried and condemned for his impiety. As moderns, we do not see piety as a political virtue, but for the Greeks, piety a virtue of cohesion—it bound together the family, the polis, and the gods into one cosmic whole. It is this three-tiered piety that animated the Iliad, Aeschylus’ Oresteia, and Sophocles’ Antigone. King Archon’s court is significant, because it underscores piety as a “political problem.” Impiety can destabilize the polis. Dr. Spencer suggests that Euthyphro sees Socrates as “being out of place,” which can be read as a euphemism for impiety or religious pollution, i.e., Socrates is the pollution of Athens. The question, however, is what is piety?

What is the first...

In this episode of the Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Daniel Shields discuss the significance of Plato's First Alcibiades, particularly in the context of its use at Wyoming Catholic College.

They explore the themes of self-knowledge, the relationship between philosophy and politics, and the importance of mentorship in education. The conversation delves into the character of Alcibiades as a reflection of the student experience, the role of spiritedness in the pursuit of wisdom, and the communal nature of the philosophical life.

Dr. Shields shares insights from his teaching experience, emphasizing the need for students to recognize their ignorance and the transformative power of philosophy as a way of life.

Check out thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule!

Check out our collection of WRITTEN GUIDES!

From our guide:

First Alcibiades is both the beginning and a summation of Platonic philosophy. The dialogue “held pride of place in later antiquity as the ideal work with which to begin the study of Platonic philosophy.”[1] Its traditional subtitle was "on the nature of man,” and it was said First Alcibiades “contains the whole philosophy of Plato, as in a seed.”[2] The Islamic commentator, Al-Farabi, said that in First Alcibiades “all the Platonic questions are raised as if for the first time.”

At the heart of the dialogue is the maxim “know thyself,” which is in turn at the heart of the philosophic life. Plato uses a dialogue between a young Alcibiades, age twenty, and an older Socrates, age forty, to explore the Delphic maxim within the context of a teacher and student.[3] The relationship of the teacher as a lover of the soul of the student gave rise to the term "Platonic love," an intense, but non-sexual love in pursuit of excellence.[4]

The dramatic date of the dialogue is approximately 433 BC.[5] The composition date is a complicated question. First Alcibiades is considered by many to be a spurious dialogue or rather a dialogue written later by Platonists and not Plato. The dialogue sometimes has an earlier date around 390s BC and a later date in the 350s BC.[6] Some also hold the dialogue is a composite text with some being written by Plato and some being written by a later Platonist.

It should be noted, however, that antiquity held that the dialogue was written by Plato, and the idea that it was not originated recently in nineteenth century German scholarship.[7] For our purposes, we will side with antiquity and default to Plato as the authentic author.

Keywords: #Plato #Catholic #FirstAlcibiades #Philosophy #KnowThyself #GreatBooks

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[1] Plato, Complete Works, ed. John M. Cooper and D. S. Hutchinson (Indianapolis: Hackett...

KNOW THYSELF. Today, we have the second part of the excellent conversation on First Alcibiades with Dcn. Garlick, Alec Bianco, and Athenian Stranger. The conversation starts at 124(b)!

First Alcibiades is one of the BEST PLACES you could start with Plato.

Check out thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule and more!

Check out our WRITTEN GUIDE to First Alcibiades.

From the guide:

14. What does Socrates teach Alcibiades about the body (129b)?

Plato teaches that the body is subordinate to the soul, viewing it as a possession rather than the essence of man. If one is to “know thyself” then one must know what the “self” is. Dcn. Garlick contrasts this with the Christian tradition’s composite view of man as body and soul, influenced by Aristotle and Aquinas, yet argues Plato’s stance merits seriously consideration. Dcn. Garlick argues that Plato seems to intuit the Christian teaching of man in his glorified state. For example, in the Christian tradition, there is never a time you are just a body—but there will be a time you are just a soul (after death and before the general resurrection). Moreover, even after you are united with your body for all eternity in heaven, the body, in Catholic thought, does not mediate the glory of God to the soul; rather, the soul receives God directly—not only does glorified man not use a body to know God but his body would be a hinderance, as he would then hold in his soul his thought of God and not God himself. In contrast, Aristotle seems right that our knowledge in this life comes through our senses, but this is not true in heaven—the latter is much more Platonic.

As such, though Plato does not see man as essentially soul and body, his philosophical insights into who man is and why he is a soul should be taken seriously by any Christian who wants to understand his or her own tradition better. Alec stresses that Socrates downplaying the body here also has a pedagogical purpose in humbling Alcibiades’ pride, which is very much rooted in his body and appearance. Athenian Stranger comments that First Alcibiades is the first discovering of “the self,” the soul; and, moreover, that an antecedent to this discovery is seen in Odysseus speaking to his own thumos in the Odyssey. Moreover, Athenian Stranger offers the trenchant observation that while a person may never be a body without a soul, that is how many people live—a life dedicated to the lower appetites, the pleasure of the body.

15. What is the mirror of the soul (132d)?

The eyes of lover are a mirror for the soul. The idea that we must look into the eyes of one who loves us to see ourselves is presented by Socrates as a profound method for self-knowledge. Dcn. Garlick explains: “if the body is going to know itself, what do you do? Well, I look into a mirror… clearly what we need then is a mirror to our soul… the first… mirror of the soul is the eyes of the lover, the one who loves you.” As Dcn. Garlick suggests, the dynamic goes beyond that of student-teacher and extends to other relations, like husband-wife and parent-child. Another profound aspect of this Platonic teacher is that it makes the pursuit of virtue, wisdom, and the good life a communal one. It is a stark contrast from Descartes’ solitary introspection. We are social creatures—even in our pursuit of wisdom and ultimately of the divine.

Athenian Stranger comments on the role of eros in philosophy and how it works on two planes: the eros between lovers, and...

PLATO IS PHILOSOPHY - and there is no better place to start with Plato than First Alcibiades. Today, we are discussing First Alcibiades with Alec Bianco of the Circe Institute and with the Athenian Stranger. Go check out their X accounts.

Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule.

Check out our PATREON for written guides on the great books!

We also have a NEW COMMUNITY CHAT on Plato to discuss with other people reading along.

First Alcibiades is both the beginning and a summation of Platonic philosophy. The dialogue “held pride of place in later antiquity as the ideal work with which to begin the study of Platonic philosophy.”[1] Its traditional subtitle was "on the nature of man,” and it was said First Alcibiades “contains the whole philosophy of Plato, as in a seed.”[2] The Islamic commentator, Al-Farabi, said that in First Alcibiades “all the Platonic questions are raised as if for the first time.”

At the heart of the dialogue is the maxim “know thyself,” which is in turn at the heart of the philosophic life. Plato uses a dialogue between a young Alcibiades, age twenty, and an older Socrates, age forty, to explore the Delphic maxim within the context of a teacher and student.[3] The relationship of the teacher as a lover of the soul of the student gave rise to the term "Platonic love," an intense, but non-sexual love in pursuit of excellence.[4]

The dramatic date of the dialogue is approximately 433 BC.[5] The composition date is a complicated question. First Alcibiades is considered by many to be a spurious dialogue or rather a dialogue written later by Platonists and not Plato. The dialogue sometimes has an earlier date around 390s BC and a later date in the 350s BC.[6] Some also hold the dialogue is a composite text with some being written by Plato and some being written by a later Platonist.

It should be noted, however, that antiquity held that the dialogue was written by Plato, and the idea that it was not originated recently in nineteenth century German scholarship.[7] For our purposes, we will side with antiquity and default to Plato as the authentic author.

CHECK OUT OUR GUIDE TO FIRST ALCIBIADES.

CHECK OUT OUR COMMUNITY CHAT ON PLATO.

Keywords: Plato, First Alcibiades, Socratic Method, Philosophy, Education, Rhetoric, Classical Education, Moral Formation, Athenian...

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, we are continuing our study of Plato by diving into the Life of Alcibiades by Plutarch with Alex from the Cost of Glory podcast.

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Visit our PATREON page for written guides and to chat with others!

Alex is fantastic. Alex and Dcn. Garlick discuss a few preliminaries on why you should read about Alcibiades before studying Plato and why you should read Plutarch in general.

If you are not familiar with the life of Alcibiades, you are in for a treat. This man is a real-life Odysseus with all the twists and turns and unbelievable plots to merit that title. Alex will help us navigate Alcibiades’ life and pull out some important lessons, like the inherent dangers of democracy.

Also, THANK YOU for such a successful launch into Plato. We really appreciate it. Go check out our Patreon page for written guides on the great books AND a new community chat for all those who are reading Plato with us.

So join us as we prepare for our Platonic studies by examining the life of Alcibiades by Plutarch.

Keywords

Alcibiades, Plutarch, Socrates, Classics, Ancient Greece, Democracy, Philosophy, Cost of Glory, Antigone Journal, Human Nature, Alcibiades, Plutarch, Athenian politics, democracy, betrayal, piety, Spartan war, Socrates, ancient history, political strategy

#Plato #greatbooks #philosophy #christian #catholic #classics #ancientgreece #Socrates

WE ARE STARTING PLATO! Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast we are launching into our studies on Plato. We are kicking off with a roundtable of friends—a lawyer, two Phds, and an independent scholar—discussing the preliminary questions on Plato.

Questions:

1. Who was Plato?
2. Why should we read Plato?
3. Why should Christians read Plato?
4. How should we read Plato?
5. What Plato will we be reading?

We’ll also have a brief opening chat on the great books in general and why they are worth reading—which is at the heart of our mission here at Ascend. We’ll end by mapping out the next 8-9 months of episodes on Plato, which includes some of the best university professors and online voices you can find. So join us today for an excellent conversation on who is Plato and why should we read him.

Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for more resources!

Visit our PATREON PAGE for written guides and a community chat on Plato.

Keywords: Plato, Great Books, Socrates, Philosophy, Dialogues, Education, Christian Thought, Classical Education, Literature, Intellectual Tradition

Hashtags: #Plato #Greatbooks #Socrates #Christian

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Ascend and the Great Books

00:55 Introducing Plato and the Panel

05:32 The Purpose of Reading Great Books

12:05 Understanding Socrates and His Influence

21:14 Exploring Plato's Life and Philosophy

30:04 The Importance of Reading Plato

30:49 Socratic Questions and Universal Truths

33:53 Plato's Philosophical Legacy

36:15 Plato and the Spiritual Dimension

41:09 Plato's Role in Christian Thought

44:24 Philosophy and Faith: A Christian Perspective

51:19 How to Read Plato's Dialogues

01:03:49 Understanding Plato in Context

01:04:16 The Challenges of the Philosophical Life

01:05:42 The Hazards of Philosophy

01:07:18 The Demands of Knowledge

01:09:42 The Cost of Philosophical Inquiry

01:10:21 Upcoming Dialogues and Their Importance

01:13:14 Exploring First Alcibiades

01:13:44 The Euthyphro Dilemma

01:17:05 Socrates' Defense in the Apology

01:17:53 The Crito: Laws and Justice

01:18:58 The Phaedo: Death and Immortality

01:19:28 The Mino: Education and Knowledge

01:21:05 The Gorgias: Rhetoric and Morality

01:23:03 The Republic: Justice and Society

01:24:40 Reading Recommendations and Translations

01:26:04 Final Thoughts on Reading Plato

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Check out our new COMMUNITY CHAT where supporters can discuss Plato together.