In this episode of the Business Lunch podcast, Host Roland Frasier and guest Richard Lindner break down the subscription trap and why recurring revenue isn’t always the ultimate solution it’s made out to be.

From the outside, subscription models look like a dream: predictable cash flow, higher valuations, and a business that doesn’t start at zero each month. But as Roland and Richard reveal, the reality can be far more complicated.

They dive into real stories from their portfolio companies, showing how recurring revenue can backfire through hidden churn, customer support debt, and endless innovation demands. You’ll hear how even big players like Netflix constantly battle to keep customers engaged, and why smaller businesses often underestimate the true cost of service.

This episode is a must-listen if you’re considering shifting to a subscription model—or if you’ve already launched one and want to make sure it’s sustainable.

HIGHLIGHTS

“Recurring revenue is great… until you’re losing more members each month than you know how to gain.”

“There’s voluntary churn, where people cancel. But the killer is involuntary churn—declined payments, expired cards—that can quietly eat your business alive.”

“If you’re creating content subscriptions, pair them with community. Access is the real value that keeps people sticking around.”

“Don’t fall in love with the model. Define your business by who you serve, not just how you charge.”

Mentioned in this Episode

The difference between breakage vs. consumption models (think Netflix vs. gym memberships)

Why AI in customer support is changing the economics of subscription businesses

How to tell if your business should pursue a bolt-on subscription or avoid it altogether

🎧 Whether you’re launching your first subscription offer or scaling an existing one, this episode will help you see beyond the hype and make smarter decisions for long-term growth.

Timestamps:

00:00 – Intro & The Subscription Trap

02:10 – Should Every Business Go Subscription?

04:58 – Understanding Churn & Retention

07:52 – The Innovation Challenge

10:23 – Cost of Service & Support Debt

13:35 – Smarter Models: Community + Content

19:31 – Key Questions Before You Launch

CONNECT

• Ask Roland a question HERE.

RESOURCES:

• 7 Steps to Scalable workbook

• Get my book, Zero Down, FREE

To learn more about Roland Frasier 👉 https://msha.ke/rolandfrasier/

Connect with me on social:

🎵 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@rolandfrasier

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rolandfrasier/

📱 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/RolandFrasierPage/

💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rolandfrasier/

Subscribe to Roland Frasier 👉 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkHnnFgdaTCg8KBd7W_LGSw?sub_confirmation=1

Mentioned in this episode:

Join Roland & Ryan at Get Scalable Live

If you’re a founder, CEO, or operator running a 7- or 8-figure business, Get Scalable Live was built for you.

This is not your typical business event. It’s 3 days of hands-on strategy, real-world frameworks, and next-level networking with the smartest operators in the game.

🗓 November 18–20, 2025

📍 San Diego, CA

🎉 Hosted by Ryan Deiss, Roland Frasier, and Richard Lindner

🎧 As a Business Lunch listener, you get 25% off your ticket.

Use code LUNCH at checkout.

Get Scalable Live

Mentioned in this episode:

Join Roland & Ryan at Get Scalable Live

If you’re a founder, CEO, or operator running a 7- or 8-figure business, Get Scalable Live was built for you. This is not your typical business event....

Roland Frasier and Ryan Deiss break down the “loyalty illusion”—why points and perks often backfire, how spreadsheet thinking killed customer love, and a practical framework to audit or rebuild a program that actually increases retention, spend, and referrals.

• Why “loyalty penalties” drive your best customers away
• The airline/credit-card miles economics—and how devaluation erodes $25B in perceived value
• The 5-Question Loyalty Audit (value, simplicity, frequency of wins, emotion vs. switching cost, financial sanity)
• What great looks like: status, access, and convenience (not discounts)
• A 7-step roadmap to design (or reset) your program

• 00:00 Cold open: founders’ meeting recap, wine cellar banter
• 02:05 The hook: the “loyalty illusion” and why consumers feel trapped
• 05:20 Consumer POV: when complexity makes customers give up
• 08:10 Finance-driven devaluation: how “pencil-whipping” kills goodwill
• 09:45 Airlines > miles > credit cards: the $25B machine and breakage
• 12:40 From distance flown to dollars spent: fallout and backlash
• 15:05 “Loyalty penalty”: new-customer offers vs. existing customers
• 16:50 The 5-Question Loyalty Audit (red flags & benchmarks)
• 19:30 Simplicity wins: JetBlue/Southwest lessons (and where they slipped)
• 22:15 Frequency of wins: Starbucks habit loop vs. margin compression
• 25:20 Luxury model: status & access (Hermès, Four Seasons, 100 Acre)
• 28:40 Access > discounts: Wynn Private Access, line-skip convenience
• 31:10 Choosing your currency: points, status, experiences (Sephora case)
• 34:35 Setting earn ratios: 2–5% cost with outsized perceived value
• 37:10 Tiering for aspiration: Prime renewals, why Amazon is an outlier
• 39:20 7-Step Roadmap: objective → currency → earn ratio → tiers → early wins → daily integration → quarterly audits
• 43:30 Operator action items; consumer playbook (negotiate, switch, diversify)
• 46:10 Ultimate test: does your program create love—or hostages?
• 47:40 Closing thoughts & invitations to share experiences

• Discounts train delay; access creates desire.
• If <30% of points are redeemed, your program likely isn’t driving behavior.
• Measure outcomes (retention, AOV, referrals) as symptoms of real loyalty—not substitutes for it.
• Make it explainable in 60 seconds.

CONNECT

• Ask Roland a question HERE.

RESOURCES:

• 7 Steps to Scalable workbook

• Get my book, Zero Down, FREE

To learn more about Roland Frasier 👉 https://msha.ke/rolandfrasier/

Connect with me on social:

🎵 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@rolandfrasier

📸 Instagram:

In this episode of the Business Lunch podcast, host Roland Frasier sits down with Lucy Guo, a remarkable entrepreneur who made her mark in a short amount of time. Lucy takes us through her inspiring journey, starting from her early days as a kindergartener selling Pokemon cards and colored pencils to her groundbreaking roles as an intern at Facebook and the first female designer at Snap.

Lucy's shares how she leveraged platforms like PayPal and eBay to turn her skills into financial opportunities. Lucy and Roland delve into the topic of coding and its importance in today's landscape.

While Lucy acknowledges the rise of no-code tools, she emphasizes the value of understanding coding fundamentals, particularly when it comes to managing engineering teams and making informed decisions about app development.

This podcast episode offers a captivating glimpse into Lucy Guo's entrepreneurial journey, filled with valuable insights and lessons for aspiring entrepreneurs.

HIGHLIGHTS

"I was always an entrepreneur growing up... I was selling Pokemon cards and colored pencils for money."

"Knowing how to code is important... the best sites today and the best apps today, you still need a team of engineers."

“If you are just a business person and you are hiring a team of engineers, you're gonna get ripped off."

Mentioned in this episode:

Join Roland & Ryan at Get Scalable Live

If you’re a founder, CEO, or operator running a 7- or 8-figure business, Get Scalable Live was built for you. This is not your typical business event. It’s 3 days of hands-on strategy, real-world frameworks, and next-level networking with the smartest operators in the game. 🗓 November 18–20, 2025 📍 San Diego, CA 🎉 Hosted by Ryan Deiss, Roland Frasier, and Richard Lindner 🎧 As a Business Lunch listener, you get 25% off your ticket. Use code LUNCH at checkout.

Get Scalable Live

Join us as we delve into the dynamic world of executive leadership and pivotal moments of transition in this engaging episode of the Business Lunch podcast. Hosts Roland Frasier and Ryan Diess kick off with a lively banter, setting the stage for a deep dive into the complexities of being a CEO.

The episode features a detailed discussion on the stepping down of Bumble's CEO, exploring the nuanced reasons behind such significant career decisions.Throughout the conversation, Ryan and Roland offer insights into the multifaceted nature of executive roles, particularly focusing on the differences and responsibilities of CEOs and COOs.

They bring their own experiences into the discussion, providing listeners with real-world examples and practical advice.This episode is a treasure trove for anyone interested in the intricacies of business leadership, whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur, a seasoned executive, or simply curious about the dynamics of high-level management.

It's an insightful journey into what it means to lead, adapt, and grow in today's fast-paced business environment.Highlights:"I think that the most important thing is to be able to have a conversation with somebody and to be able to disagree with them and still respect them."“I want to know all the people I'm working with by name and you know, see how they're doing and know about their families and do barbecue.”“No one can run your business like you do.

Highlights:

"I think that the most important thing is to be able to have a conversation with somebody and to be able to disagree with them and still respect them."

“I want to know all the people I'm working with by name and you know, see how they're doing and know about their families..."

“No one can run your business like you do.”

Timestamps:

(0:00:00) - Considering Leadership Transitions

(0:14:17) - Consider Hiring CEO or COO

(0:23:07) - CEO vs COO and Hiring Specialists

(0:33:02) - Acquiring Successful Businesses Is More Effective

CONNECT

• Ask Roland a question HERE.

RESOURCES:

• 7 Steps to Scalable workbook

• Get my book, Zero Down, FREE

To learn more about Roland Frasier 👉 https://msha.ke/rolandfrasier/

Connect with me on social:

🎵 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@rolandfrasier

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rolandfrasier/

📱 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/RolandFrasierPage/

💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rolandfrasier/

Subscribe to Roland Frasier 👉 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkHnnFgdaTCg8KBd7W_LGSw?sub_confirmation=1

Mentioned in this episode:

Join Roland & Ryan at Get Scalable Live

If you’re a founder, CEO, or operator running a 7- or 8-figure business, Get Scalable Live was...

Welcome to a new episode of Business Lunch! Today, hosts Roland Frasier and Richard Lindner dive deep into a practical framework for optimizing business expenses—perfect for founders, business owners, and financial leaders. Whether you’re facing a cash flow crunch or simply want to boost your bottom line, this episode is packed with actionable strategies to help you identify, analyze, and cut unnecessary costs while maintaining business momentum.

Highlights:

"Every extra million dollars helps, every extra $100,000 a month helps."

"Profit dies by a thousand cuts, especially with forgotten subscriptions."

"Don’t wait for things to get bad to make things better."

"If you’re operating on a 25% profit margin, cutting $100,000 is like adding $400,000 in sales."

Timestamps:

00:00 – The Payment Terms Dilemma: Cash Flow vs. Sales Velocity

01:32 – Why Every Business Needs a Bottom Line Review

03:10 – Testing 12-Month Payment Terms: Results & Risks

06:24 – The Impact of GAAP Accounting on Revenue Recognition

08:40 – The STOP Framework: Where to Start Cutting

13:24 – Evaluating Team ROI: Scorecards & Underperformance

15:39 – Tools & Tech: The Hidden Cost of Subscriptions

18:59 – Operations & Overhead: Renegotiating Leases and Utilities

26:46 – The SAVE Process: Scan, Analyze, Verify, Execute

34:56 – Why Quarterly Expense Reviews Matter

CONNECT

• Ask Roland a question HERE.

RESOURCES:

• 7 Steps to Scalable workbook

• Get my book, Zero Down, FREE

To learn more about Roland Frasier 👉 https://msha.ke/rolandfrasier/

Connect with me on social:

🎵 TikTok:

/ rolandfrasier

📸 Instagram:

Welcome to a new episode of Business Lunch! In this episode, Roland Frasier and Richard Lindner take a look at the current trend of running businesses with ultra-lean teams, the role of AI in operational efficiency, and the real impact these choices have on business value and potential for acquisition. Whether you’re a founder, operator, or executive looking to optimize your team, scale profitably, or prepare your business for sale, this episode is packed with insights on balancing technology, human capital, and long-term growth.

Highlights:

"It’s a badge of honor to operate with as few people as possible."

"If you’re a lifestyle business, build a lifestyle business. If you’re building to sell, you’re selling the ability to execute."

"Trying to be lean in customer support is usually to give poor customer support."

"Small businesses that are overly lean are just not going to be as marketable as companies that have redundancies."

Timestamps:

00:00 – Introduction

01:05 – The Lean Team Trend: Entrepreneurs and the new badge of honor

02:44 – Three Business Models: Lifestyle, lean tech, and scalable teams

05:49 – Technology as Amplifier: Roles for tech and humans

08:13 – The Customer Support Cautionary Tale: $40M savings gone wrong

12:16 – Human Touch in Customer Service: Why empathy matters

15:45 – Transferable Value: The importance of cross-training and redundancy

19:28 – Critical Roles for Lean, Profitable Companies: Finance, marketing, sales, and tech

24:26 – Departmental Tech Specialists: Bridging humans and AI

30:16 – Digital Marketer’s AI Solutions: How to get started and who it’s for

CONNECT

• Ask Roland a question HERE.

RESOURCES:

• 7 Steps to Scalable workbook

• Get my book, Zero Down, FREE

To learn more about Roland Frasier 👉 https://msha.ke/rolandfrasier/

Connect with me on social:

🎵 TikTok:

/ rolandfrasier

📸 Instagram:

Welcome to a new episode of Business Lunch! In this episode, Roland Frasier and Ryan Deiss dive into the emerging trend of rolling up traditional businesses and supercharging them with AI. They discuss the opportunities and pitfalls of this strategy, offer advice for old-school business owners, aspiring platform companies, and investors, and share real-world examples of value creation through AI integration. This episode is perfect for entrepreneurs, business owners considering acquisitions, and anyone curious about the intersection of AI and business growth.

Highlights:

"Roll ups fail at the integration level, and the integration is really what systems do we have to do that?"

"If you don't invest in up-leveling and AI-fying your business now, you'll be acquired on the cheap."

"The basic building blocks of why you would do a roll up, applied with AI and tech, make perfect sense to me."

"If you're planning on just shutting it down or letting it die a slow and profitable death, then cool. But if it's longer than that, you either have to get on the bus or face being put out of business."

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction

04:15 AI and Roll-Ups: Success and Failure

07:16 Advice for Old-School Businesses

10:30 Investor Strategy and Execution

16:05 Management and Systems for Roll-Ups

17:56 Investor Strategy: Mergers and Acquisitions

20:52 Value Addition through AI

CONNECT

• Ask Roland a question HERE.

RESOURCES:

• 7 Steps to Scalable workbook

• Get my book, Zero Down, FREE

To learn more about Roland Frasier 👉 https://msha.ke/rolandfrasier/

Connect with me on social:

🎵 TikTok:

/ rolandfrasier

📸 Instagram:

Welcome to a new episode of Business Lunch! In this episode, Roland Frasier and Ryan Deiss dive into the real challenges facing small and medium-sized businesses today, cutting through the marketing spin of industry reports. If you’re a business owner, entrepreneur, marketer, or anyone interested in practical strategies for growth, customer acquisition, and leveraging AI, this episode is for you. Tune in for candid insights, actionable advice, and a few laughs along the way.

Highlights:

“I’ve never once in my entire life heard a small business owner use the word ‘resilience.’”

“If your offer is confusing, it’s not going to work, simplicity wins right now.”

“AI is the single biggest disruptive event any of us have ever experienced.”

“Let people buy the way they want to buy.”

Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction

01:36 – Salesforce Report: Hype or Help?

03:57 – Do Business Owners Really Say ‘Resilience’?

05:14 – AI Adoption: Fear of Losing the Human Touch

07:38 – What Are the Real Top Challenges?

11:07 – How Macroeconomics Impact Sales

15:23 – Simplifying Offers for Better Results

17:41 – Creating a ‘Happening’ to Re-Engage Customers

21:05 – AI-ifying Your Business: Pivot or Perish

28:04 – Acquisitions: The Private Equity Playbook for SMBs

CONNECT

• Ask Roland a question HERE.

RESOURCES:

• 7 Steps to Scalable workbook

• Get my book, Zero Down, FREE

To learn more about Roland Frasier 👉 https://msha.ke/rolandfrasier/

Connect with me on social:

🎵 TikTok:

/ rolandfrasier

📸 Instagram:

/...