So why is one of the world’s leading AI researchers teaching AI to understand pain and suffering? Well, Daniel Hulme says that if we build an empathetic AI, perhaps even a conscious one, then we’ll be safer. His hypothesis is that a "zombie" AI will eat our brains, but an empathetic AI would stay aligned with us. So he's building this "antivirus" (with AI, of course) and he's very aware that this sounds crazy or like "something from Marvel."

That's just some of what broke my brain in this conversation with one of the world's top AI researchers and founders. And Daniel has serious credibility, so I'm not dismissing the threat he sees — you know, the one where we all get turned into paperclips.

Daniel sold his company Satalia to WPP, where he now serves as Chief AI Officer. He’s just founded Conscium, which verifies that AI agents are safe and can do what they promise — and is also researching consciousness and pain. Some of the world’s leading AI thinkers are on the advisory board and Daniel has been in this space for decades: we’ll talk about why, for his PhD, he studied bumblebee brains (yes, really — and it's deeply relevant).

We get into:

• His unified theory of consciousness — his "color wheel" model — and why he thinks consciousness only exists in motion
• Why he believes large language models are ultimately a dead end — and what neuromorphic computing could replace them with
• What bumblebee brains can teach us about building AI that's up to a thousand times more energy efficient
• Why he calls today's AI agents "intoxicated graduates" — and says companies should spend 80% of their time testing them
• The concept of "mind crime" — the idea that we could build conscious AI and accidentally put it through horrendous suffering without realizing it
• His vision of a "protopia" — where AI makes food, healthcare, education, and energy so abundant that people are freed from economic constraints to pursue what actually matters

We future around and find out a lot in this one!

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Chapters

• (01:39) - "Would a conscious superintelligence be safer than a zombie one?"
• (03:37) - The paperclip problem is not hypothetical
• (05:06) - Conscium's mission — AI safety for humans and for AI themselves
• (08:50) - "I think I've got my head around consciousness"
• (11:57) - The color wheel model — why consciousness only exists in motion
• (13:58) - Teaching AI morals through evolution, not guardrails
• (17:23) - "Hey Claude, are you conscious?" — how do you test for that?
• (21:07) - What bumblebee brains can teach us about building better AI
• (24:14) - "I think we are completely scaling wrong"
• (29:43) - Why Daniel calls AI agents "intoxicated graduates"
• (32:48) - Companies should spend 80% of their time testing agents
• (38:19) - "What would you do if you were economically free?"

• Conscium
• Daniel Hulme on Wikipedia
• Daniel on LinkedIn

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So how do Kwaku's kids know that it's FAFO Friday? "They're like, 'oh, we know you're doing the podcast 'cause we just hear you cackling through the walls.'"

So laugh along with Kwaku and me today as we work our way through a quick victory lap (stuff we said would happen last week happened!), why Sam is like that desperate guy at the bar who refuses to go home alone, quantum computing explained via children's literature, why the Jetsons are not reason enough for us to build humanoid robots, robot choreography (are we human or are we dancers?), wen self-driving cars in NY?, riding a wave of green lights up Manhattan's third avenue at 2 AM, artificial wombs and other moonshot off-shoots, and the real origin of Velcro (AI lied to me about it).

Plus... goat ranches, breakfast tacos, and what we're most excited about heading into SXSW. It's a choose your own adventure kind of day.

Chapters

• (01:24) - Victory Lap — We Called It
• (03:35) - OpenAI's Bar Guy Energy
• (06:38) - Waymo, Robot Choreography, and Green Light Waves
• (10:16) - Self-Driving Cars vs. New York Politicians
• (13:13) - What We're Most Excited About at SXSW
• (15:41) - Quantum Computing: Choose Your Own Adventure Edition
• (18:01) - Dire Wolves, Moonshots, and Tech Nobody Sees Coming
• (24:07) - Why Do Robots Need to Look Like Us?
• (29:22) - The SXSW Way-Back Machine
• (36:08) - Increased Regulation: Past, Present, or Future?

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Sponsor the show?

• Are you looking to reach an audience of senior technologists and decision-makers? Email me: dan@modernproductminds.com

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Music by Jonathan Zalben

So, there are dire wolves living on Earth again. They were “de-extincted” by Colossal Biosciences. And today on the show their Chief Science Officer joins me to share her view on why the de-extinction matters — not as a science project, but because it will help solve problems that threaten every species on earth, including us.

Beth Shapiro is the Chief Science Officer at Colossal Biosciences, and she helped to bring back the dire wolf or, as others call it, a gray wolf with 20 genetic edits. There is a fierce debate about what de-extinction even means, and we discuss that, but whatever you call them, there are now three big wolves living in an undisclosed location and they wouldn't be there if not for the DNA that Beth and her team edited. Colossal is also working to bring back the wooly mammoth, the Tasmanian tiger, the dodo and other animals that have long been extinct. Why?

Listen to find out…

Chapters:

• (01:19) - The Most Oprah Question Beth's Ever Been Asked
• (03:04) - Moonshots Require You to Create a Giant List of Problems
• (04:19) - The Things We’ll Solve Along the Way, a la the Original Moonshot… to the Moon
• (05:57) - Beth’s Journey: From Broadcast Journalism to Ancient DNA
• (09:13) - How a Sediment Core Solved a Mammoth Mystery
• (11:36) - Why Charismatic Animals Matter (a.k.a. Why Riz Is Everything)
• (12:38) - What’s Up With Romulus, Remus, and Khaleesi?
• (14:19) - But Are They Really “Dire Wolves”? The Controversy Over 20 Genetic Edits
• (21:45) - Should We Do This? Beth's Ethics Framework for Builders
• (23:51) - Advice for Moonshot Builders
• (25:10) - Why We Want Dodos, Mammoths, and Thylacines Back

• Colossal Biosciences
• Beth Shapiro
• PopTech -- a conference I love!

Support Future Around & Find Out

• Follow Dan on LinkedIn
• Get the free Future Around & Find Out newsletter
• Become a paid subscriber and help future proof the podcast!

Sponsor the show?

• Are you looking to reach an audience of senior technologists and decision-makers? Email me: dan@modernproductminds.com

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Music by Jonathan Zalben