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In this episode of Embodied Pathways, I had the pleasure of speaking with Fernanda Gebara, affectionately known as Fe, a Brazilian scientist, writer, and lecturer with a profound connection to the Amazon rainforest and Indigenous cultures. Fe's extensive experience living and working with the Yawanawá people has deeply informed her work, culminating in her forthcoming book, Chanting Spring: Indigenous Wisdom for Ancestral Futures. This title resonates with Rachel Carson's Silent Spring, as Fe explores the critical question of how we can reconnect with the natural world amidst the ecological and spiritual crises of our time.

We began our conversation with an introduction to the Yawanawá people, who have worked tirelessly to recover their culture and spirituality after facing significant exploitation. Fe shared how they have embraced a more international presence, choosing to share their wisdom and practices with the world, which is an usual approach among Indigenous groups.

A central theme of our discussion was the concept of the sacred. For Fe, the sacred transcends spirituality; it encompasses a profound quality of presence that invites reverence and respect for all beings and elements of nature. This understanding of the sacred is deeply relational, emphasizing our interconnectedness with the world around us. This leads us to explore the idea of animism, which Fi describes as a way of perceiving life as relational and communicative, extending beyond humans to include trees, rivers, and even objects. This perspective challenges the dominant Western narrative of separation and encourages a more participatory understanding of existence.

We then consider the sacred dimension of oxytocin, the "love hormone". Fe highlighted how this hormone, released during childbirth and breastfeeding, symbolizes the sacredness of nurturing and the continuity of life, linking us to a broader biological inheritance.

Storytelling and myths emerged as vital pathways for reclaiming our place in the natural world. Fe emphasized that stories shape our understanding of ourselves and our values, and changing the dominant narratives of separation and domination is essential for fostering a more reciprocal relationship with the Earth. Imagination, too, plays a crucial role in connecting us to the spiritual and more-than-human realms. Fe shared insights from her experiences with the Yawanawá , illustrating how imagination serves as a bridge to deeper understanding and connection with the world around us.

As we discussed embodied knowing, Fe emphasized the importance of rituals, ceremonies, and practices that engage the body and senses. These experiences cultivate a different kind of intelligence that is often overlooked in Western culture, where rational thought predominates. We touched on the significance of ayahuasca in Indigenous traditions, where it serves as a sacred medicine for community healing and connection. Fe cautioned, however, that as Western society increasingly engages with such practices, it is vital to integrate this knowledge respectfully and meaningfully. This led us to explore the differences between Western and Indigenous consciousness. Fe articulated how Indigenous awareness is more attuned to relationships and community, contrasting sharply with the individualistic and often exploitative mindset prevalent in Western culture.

Finally, Fe highlighted the potential for harmonizing Indigenous wisdom with modern technology, emphasizing that technology should be guided by the intelligence of the heart and ancestral knowledge. As we wrapped up our conversation, Fe shared her hopes for the future, emphasizing the need for unlearning and relearning as we navigate the complexities of our time. Her book, set to be released in September, promises to be a significant contribution to this ongoing dialogue.

I invite you to listen to this enlightening episode, where we explore the intersections of Indigenous wisdom, ecological consciousness, and the sacredness of our relationships with the world.

More about Fernanda Gebara:

https://fegebara.com/

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It has been a great personal pleasure to welcome Graham Harvey to Embodied Pathways. I first met Graham in 1994, when I was one of the organisers of a Magical Conference in London—a fundraising event for the eco-pagan group, Dragon. That magical encounter ultimately led to Graham inviting me to speak at the first-ever academic conference on Paganism later that year. He would go on to become my PhD supervisor and has continued to support my research ever since.

Graham has fundamentally reshaped our understanding of animism—not as a primitive belief system, but as a sophisticated, relational worldview. His groundbreaking 2005 book Animism: Respecting the Living World challenged colonial frameworks and reframed animism as an ethical practice of engaging respectfully with other-than-human persons—rivers, stones, forests, and much more.

In our conversation, Graham shares the fascinating journey that led him to this work. His PhD research on ancient texts and self-identities eventually guided him toward exploring the vibrant world of paganism. Transformative experiences at the Stonehenge Festival and an indigenous powwow in Newfoundland sparked his deeper interest in relationships between humans and the larger-than-human world, laying the groundwork for his revolutionary approach to animism.

As Graham emphasised throughout our discussion, his work reveals that animism isn't about what people believe, but about how they act, speak, and relate within communities that include more than just humans. We explored the concept of "other-than-human persons"—a phrase that highlights the agency and personhood of non-human entities, challenging conventional views and encouraging us to reconsider how we engage with the world around us.

Graham's framing of what is often called New Animism entails "provocative re-evaluations of all ways of being, acting, thinking and relating" (The Handbook of Contemporary Animism, 2015). This raises urgent questions: What changes when we recognise a river or a mountain as a person deserving our respect? How do we live ethically within such a larger-than-human world? And perhaps most pressing in the midst of an ecological crisis, what might we learn from cultures that never forgot that the world is alive and animate?

We delved into how animism can inform our understanding of kinship and responsibility in a world that often prioritises consumerism and individualism, exploring the significance of ceremony, gratitude, and the active engagement required to foster meaningful relationships with the environment. This conversation serves as a powerful reminder that we have the capacity to cultivate respectful relationships with the world around us, drawing inspiration from both indigenous practices and our own lived experiences. I hope you find it as inspiring and thought-provoking as I did.

Graham Harvey on Wikipedia

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In this episode of Embodied Pathways, I had the immense pleasure of welcoming two remarkable guests: John Seed, a pioneering figure in the Deep Ecology movement, and my dear friend, Karin Raven Steininger, an Oscar-winning documentary filmmaker and Deep Ecology facilitator. Together, we explored the profound connections between humanity and the natural world, delving into the themes of activism, grief, and the healing power of nature.

We began our conversation by discussing how John and Raven found their way into activism. John shared his unexpected journey, which began in a Buddhist community in northern New South Wales, where a call for help from a neighbor ignited a lifelong passion for environmental protection. Raven spoke about her deep connection to the Earth through Paganism, emphasizing that activism is an inherent part of her spiritual life.

A significant portion of our discussion focused on the experiential Deep Ecology Workshops that John and Raven have been facilitating. These workshops aim to heal the myth of disconnection between humans and the natural world, allowing participants to listen to their own wisdom and the wisdom of the Earth. Raven described the workshops as collective experiences that create space for grief, anger, and empowerment, while John emphasized the importance of feelings in driving ecological identity and action.

We also touched on the concept of embodied knowing, which aligns with the podcast's theme of "Embodied Pathways." Both John and Raven agreed that our bodies are primary routes to consciousness change, and that reconnecting with our ecological identity is essential for meaningful activism. They highlighted the need for ongoing practices and rituals that remind us of our interconnectedness with the Earth, drawing parallels with Indigenous ceremonial life.

As our conversation progressed, we explored the role of gratitude in Deep Ecology, with Raven articulating it as an invitation to recognize the abundance of the Earth. John shared a fascinating perspective on the ancient cycles of partnership between humans and the natural world, illustrating how our very existence is intertwined with the life processes of our planet.

We concluded the episode by discussing the importance of awe and joy in our connection to nature, and how these emotions can empower us in our activism. Both John and Raven are currently engaged in exciting projects, including upcoming workshops and conservation efforts, which reflect their commitment to fostering a culture of connection and healing.

This episode is a heartfelt reminder of the power of community, the necessity of ritual, and the joy that comes from reconnecting with the Earth. I hope you find inspiration in our conversation and feel encouraged to explore your own relationship with nature.

John Seed online:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnseed.deepecology
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/johnseed_deepecology
Substack: https://substack.com/@johnseed
Podcast links, essays, music, films etc. and occasional blog posts at https://johnseed.net/ and https://rainforestinfo.org.au/johnseed.htm
Thinking Like a Mountain text: http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/deep-eco/TLAM%20text.htm

Deep Ecology workshop with John Seed , Karin Raven Steininger and Brother Tenzin, Bellingen, NSW, Australia, April 25-27 2025: https://events.humanitix.com/deep-ecology-with-john-seed-k