At some point in ministry, we start confusing busyness for faithfulness. We tell ourselves that exhaustion is just the cost of obedience - that being needed, stretched thin, and constantly available somehow means we’re doing it right.

But deep down, we know something’s wrong.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with his longtime friend Andrew Hartman to talk about what happens when time becomes our boss. Andrew shares how his own burnout - marked by real physical breakdown - became the turning point that changed his relationship with time and work forever.

This isn’t a conversation about calendars or to-do lists. It’s about trust, limits, and the grace of learning how to stop before it’s too late. For anyone in ministry who’s running on empty, this one might be preventative - so you never have to live life after ministry.

• Being busy for God is not the same as being faithful to Him.
• Stress isn’t proof of calling; it’s often a signal of fear or misplaced trust.
• Burnout is your body’s declaration of bankruptcy - an invitation to reorganize your life.
• Ministry culture often rewards overwork, but Jesus modeled a rhythm of rest and presence.
• True stewardship includes managing time as a sacred resource, not an endless debt.
• Building trust with time begins by creating small, consistent commitment plans.
• You don’t have to burn out to be fruitful. The work of God is sustained by the peace of God.

• 00:00 – Matt and Andrew reconnect after 20 years
• 01:43 – When “busy for God” became burnout
• 05:18 – The body declares bankruptcy on stress
• 07:03 – Solving the time problem
• 09:21 – Is burnout a failure or a signal?
• 13:52 – Fear, faith, and our emotional relationship with time
• 17:24 – How “commitment plans” build peace
• 19:10 – Leading others in stewardship of time
• 23:48 – What life looks like on the other side of burnout
• 26:33 – Teams that heal their pace together

• Learn more, donate, or schedule a confidential transition call at MinistryTransitions.com
• Explore Andrew Hartman’s resources - free masterclass, coaching, and tools - at TimeBoss.us

Most pastors imagine ministry as a lifelong calling, until something shifts - slowly, painfully, or all at once.

In this episode, Brad Gray and Brad Nelson share their unfiltered stories of leaving pastoral ministry, wrestling through uncertainty, and discovering the faithful presence of God in seasons where nothing made sense.

Their journeys reveal how transitions can expose hidden wounds, force honest discernment, and ultimately reshape our understanding of calling.

From uprooting a thriving teaching pastor role with no job on the other side, to the quiet unraveling that nearly cost a marriage, both men walk through the tension, grief, and surprising grace that comes when God invites you into a future you can’t yet see.

And at the center of their healing is a rediscovery of the Lord’s Prayer - not as a childhood memory, but as a daily blueprint for partnering with God.

This conversation is hope for the discouraged, a mirror for the exhausted, and a companion for anyone wondering whether there is life after ministry. There is. And it might be more expansive than you expect.

• How God can initiate a transition long before you understand it.
• Why community and spiritual friends are essential during vocational upheaval.
• What happens when the pain of staying becomes greater than the fear of leaving.
• How unaddressed wounds from ministry begin to surface during transitions.
• Why the Lord’s Prayer is a daily blueprint for grounding, clarity, and direction.
• The difference between assignment and calling in a leader’s life.
• How God works slowly, quietly, and faithfully in seasons that feel stalled.

00:00 – Introductions and the two Brads 01:10 – Brad Gray’s unexpected call away from a thriving church 03:45 – Moving to Nashville without a plan 07:00 – Brad Nelson’s painful exit from church planting 09:35 – How ministries unravel marriages and identities 12:30 – Discernment, tension, and the pivot point 14:30 – When pain forces change 20:00 – The Lord’s Prayer as a blueprint for life 25:43 – Kingdom, calling, and partnering with God 29:09 – The making of the film and book 33:06 – How churches can use the new resources 38:30 – What they would say to their former selves 42:49 – Is there life after ministry? 43:40 – Final thoughts and blessing

Your story is not over. In fact, this may be the first time in years that God finally has the space to show you who you are beyond what you do.

If you’re navigating a transition, facing a forced resignation, preparing for succession, or simply unraveling quietly under the weight of ministry, reach out. You don’t have to make these decisions alone.

Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential conversation or to give toward a leader who is carrying more than they can name.

And if you want to explore the formative power of the Lord’s Prayer as a companion in this season, engage the resources at https://thelordsprayer.com. They offer a film, a forthcoming episodic series, and a new book designed to walk with you as God leads you into what’s next.

There is life after ministry. And God is already in the future preparing it for you.

If transition feels like free fall, this episode will help you steady your soul and take the next right step.

Key Takeaways

• Honest work audits can reveal misaligned roles without shaming your calling.
• A two-year discernment window can hold fear, finances, and family well.
• Build a simple runway: clear income target and small savings cushion.
• Generosity in transition can reframe pain and deepen humility.
• You can keep a pastoral identity while changing employers.
• Finishing well rests on margin, influence, and intentional living.
• Purpose is discovered over time. Let the desert do its work.

Chapter Markers

00:00 Welcome and background 02:20 When the job isn’t the joy anymore 04:55 Two-year wrestle and first paid coaching moment 08:24 Elders, early exit, unexpected generosity 10:14 Building a practical runway and budget targets 12:16 Why “Lead Self, Lead Others” 16:02 Defining finishing well in the fourth quarter 18:18 Retiring the fee, keeping the call at 68 20:07 Purpose unfolds slowly, not suddenly 24:42 Margin, influence, and hyper-intentional life 27:30 Why pastors make great coaches 30:01 CEOs and pastors face the same pressures 31:38 Wisdom to a next-gen pastor son 34:03 Where to find Nathan’s work

Before you make the next move, make the wise one. Visit ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential call, get transition tools for your board or staff, or give to help another leader walk through theirs with dignity.

To learn more about how pastors can become powerful leadership coaches, visit leadselfleadothers.com or realcoachingsuccess.com. You’ll find tools to help you clarify calling, build a coaching rhythm, and multiply your impact beyond the church walls.