We talk about how music enhances our sobriety and what our playlists look like. We also talk about sober concerts we’ve loved. Live shows are a revelation, not just because we remember everything, but because we are present in the moment. To Anna, listening to Taylor Swift is the closest she’s come to feeling high (watching The Eras tour movie made her understand why people do ayahuasca). Lisa talks about the Rolling Stones and Grateful Dead shows.

For all you Swifties, dig into Swift Steps.

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Some people love sober anniversaries, some people dread them, and some people don’t keep up with them at all. There’s no right or wrong way to do it. We talk about what counting days and keeping time looks like for us. Anna never misses an opportunity to celebrate herself, from her first soberversary (a karaoke party in West LA!) to her upcoming 25th (a full on 90s party with food trucks and costumes). For Lisa, it’s changed multiple times over 21 years.

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Our friend Stefanie Wilder Taylor, author of SIPPY CUPS ARE NOT FOR CHARDONNAY and DRUNKISH, and host of the Drunkish podcast, joins us to talk about being publicly outed as a sober person and what the backlash was like. Stefanie was barely sober when she was thrust into the spotlight as a sobriety expert. We talk about owning our own stories and what anonymity is and isn’t.

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The official kickoff of the holiday season, Turkey Day, can be tricky. Especially the first one. Family, friends, food, and often a lot of booze. What could go wrong? Lisa ended up flat on her back beneath a green bean casserole. Anna spent her first sober Thanksgiving freezing to death in a motorhome in a San Diego parking lot. (True!)

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Just because we’re sober doesn’t mean we don’t still want to have fun wherever we hang out. But being comfortable in bars and clubs isn’t automatic. Lisa took a pass for a long time and only goes on rare occasions. Anna spent her first year sober as Premiere magazine’s “Party Girl,” which involved going out every night among the shiniest of people and the most open of bars. Amazingly, the experience only enhanced her commitment to sobriety more.

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Legend has it that drugs and alcohol have spawned some great works of art, including books. But evidence shows that numbing ourselves out actually stifles creativity. Anna and Lisa talk about what it was like to first feel that spark and flow of an idea without the booze. Anna was terrified that just sitting in front of the computer was going to trigger cravings and was shocked to discover that writing was actually a million times easier sober than high. Lisa felt it straight out of the detox unit.

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It’s bound to happen. At some point in our early or not-so-early sobriety, something is likely to trigger that overwhelming feeling of anxiety or even panic. Maybe it’s in a situation we’d drink our through or maybe it’s out of nowhere. For Lisa, it was the latter. For Anna, smoking cigarettes eased her newcomer sobriety—until she realized it was only exacerbating the issue.

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Our first vacations in sobriety should be occasions to relax and let loose. And ours were! Just not without some pre-planning and flexibility on the fly. Anna found herself abandoned in the woods when she tried to find a meeting in New Zealand while Lisa found sober support in the City of Lights.

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