There seems to be an abundance of them: bad leaders. That can be dangerous, especially when they have lots of power. But what makes a bad leader? And how can we understand them? According to Barbara Kellerman, you have to understand the system around bad leaders, including their followers. She highlights this by using examples such as Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, and Adolf Hitler.

Biljana Plavšić: a respected biologist, high-ranking politician, and a convicted female war criminal. But despite her role in the war in former Yugoslavia, she says she is innocent and many Serbs see her as a hero. How is that possible?

We discuss it with Associate Professor Olivera Simic. She met Plavšić multiple times over the course of multiple years. Olivera tells us more about these interactions and about the person behind the crimes.

Perpetrators of mass atrocities can be victims of trauma. What does this tell us about perpetrators specifically and human nature more generally? How does such trauma develop? And should we even be concerned about perpetrator trauma? In the final episode of season two of Terribly and Terrifyingly Normal?, we discuss the concept of perpetrator trauma and the associated moral dilemmas together with Bart Nauta. He is currently doing his Ph.D. on the topic.