Episodios

  • 106. Class Divides in Mental Health Treatment: Policies & Systems of Containment and Control with Sociologist Neil Gong

    106. Class Divides in Mental Health Treatment: Policies & Systems of Containment and Control with Sociologist Neil Gong
    Jun 20 2025

    I speak with sociologist Neil Gong about his book: Sons, Daughters, and Sidewalk Psychotics, which explores how mental health care in the U.S. is deeply shaped by class divides. We talk about the legacy of deinstitutionalization, how public systems rely on what he calls “tolerant containment” while elite institutions often impose surveillance and control, and the different ways each system can fail. Neil and I dig into housing-first programs, clinician burnout, and RFK’s vision for therapeutic farms. We also unpack what Neil calls the “Frankenstein monster” created by the uneasy mix of civil libertarian ideals and austerity policies. The conversation ends with reflections on political education, peer-led alternatives, and how we can hold space for complex and even opposing perspectives in the fight for better mental health systems.

    In this episode we discuss:

    • class comparisons in of Public vs. private mental health care models in Los Angeles
    • History and impacts of deinstitutionalization
    • Tolerant containment in public systems vs. surveillance in elite settings
    • What we can do to improve quality of care
    • RFK’s therapeutic farms and proposed health policies
    • The need for peer support and user-led initiatives in mental health reform
    • The “Frankenstein” fusion of civil liberties and austerity politics
    • Institutional harm reduction, defunding social programs and its potential backlash
    • Teaching political education


    Bio

    Neil Gong is assistant professor of sociology at the University of California, San Diego. He is the author of Sons, Daughters and Sidewalk Psychotics: Mental Illness and Homelessness in Los Angeles. His public commentary has appeared in venues like the Washington Post, the Atlantic, and the Los Angeles Times

    Links

    Neil’s Website: https://www.neilgong.com/

    Book: Sons, Daughters and Sidewalk Psychotics: https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/S/bo212067953.html


    Resources:

    • Find videos and bonus episodes: ⁠DEPTHWORK.SUBSTACK.COM⁠
    • Get the book: ⁠⁠Mad Studies Reader: Interdisciplinary Innovations in Mental Health⁠
    • Become a member: ⁠The Institute for the Development of Human Arts⁠
    • Train with us: ⁠Transformative Mental Health Core Curriculum

    Sessions & Information about the host: ⁠⁠JazmineRussell.com⁠⁠

    Disclaimer: The DEPTH Work Podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any information on this podcast in no way to be construed or substituted as psychological counseling, psychotherapy, mental health counseling, or any other type of therapy or medical advice.
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    1 h y 10 m
  • 105. The Joy of Movement: Embodied Curiosity, Injury Recovery, and Playfulness with David Bantje

    105. The Joy of Movement: Embodied Curiosity, Injury Recovery, and Playfulness with David Bantje
    May 23 2025
    “One reason why it can feel so hard to listen to your body is because it is not normalized to move in a variety of ways that you would want to. There are certain ways of moving that are allowed or socially accepted but others are very rare to see. Therefore, it makes a lot of sense that we don't know what our body wants or can't listen to it because we always shut it down.” - David BantjeIn this episode, I’m joined by natural movement practitioner, and my loving partner, David Bantje. In this episode, he offers a refreshing, intuitive reframe on how we can shift our relationship to movement for a more liberated , and playful life. Rather than treating movement as a chore, isolated workout, or something we only do in designated spaces, David invites us to see movement as a birthright—something our bodies crave and have evolved to do in diverse, dynamic ways. He discusses how mainstream exercise culture, with its narrow focus and rigid intensity, can leave us disconnected from the deeper intelligence of our bodies. Instead, natural movement emphasizes accessibility, variety, injury prevention, and playfulness, allowing us to reconnect and reclaim our capacity for taking risks, curiosity, and aliveness. This isn’t about perfection or discipline, but about attunement: giving our bodies the space to lead.In this episode we discuss:How chronic pain and injuries "stack up" from habitual postures and sedentary lifestylesWhat natural movement is, and how it helps realign us with what our bodies evolved to doThe limits of conventional fitness culture and why high-intensity, short bursts of exercise can do more harm than goodThe power of movement snacks—simple, frequent movements throughout the day—to support flexibility, awareness, and healingMovement as medicine in the context of illness, disability, and injury (including David’s experience with a herniated disc)Relearning how to listen to your body, even when it doesn’t communicate in languageWhy reclaiming natural movement can be a path not only to health—but to joy, agency, and freedomBioDavid Bantje is a movement practitioner, teacher, and facilitator based in Potsdam, Germany. His interests span movement disciplines such as natural movement, parkour, dance, somatic movement, running, climbing, and their interconnections. He researches the importance of movement for our individual lives as well as our communities, how our modern societies have affected our movement habits, and ways to reconnect to our physicality and playfulness. In 2019 and 2021 he got certifications as a MovNat Natural Movement Trainer, and has since taught movement classes and workshops on various topics. Currently, he is co-hosting Monday Motion, an open community event for freely exploring movement and dance. He just started to write a Substack called "Movement Invitations".LinksDavid's Substack: https://davidbantje.substack.com/Katie Bowman: https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/Natural Movement Classes: https://movnat.com/Resources:Get the book: ⁠⁠⁠Mad Studies Reader: Interdisciplinary Innovations in Mental Health⁠⁠Become a member: ⁠⁠The Institute for the Development of Human Arts⁠⁠Train with us: ⁠⁠Transformative Mental Health Core Curriculum⁠Sessions & Information about the host: ⁠⁠⁠JazmineRussell.com⁠⁠⁠Disclaimer: The DEPTH Work Podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any information on this podcast in no way to be construed or substituted as psychological counseling, psychotherapy, mental health counseling, or any other type of therapy or medical advice.
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    52 m
  • 104. Being an Anti-Racist Clinician: On Moral Injury, Resistance and the Future of Psychiatry with Rupi Legha

    104. Being an Anti-Racist Clinician: On Moral Injury, Resistance and the Future of Psychiatry with Rupi Legha
    Apr 18 2025

    “Your questioning and critiquing is everything that is needed for 2025 and beyond. And if or when it is construed [by the system] as as a deficiency, unprofessionalism, or ineptitude, I hope that by priming people to keep their eyes open for those responses, it can be more of a collective yawn.” - Rupi Legha

    In this episode I’m joined by Rupi Legha, psychiatrist, educator, and scholar-activist—whose work radically interrogates the role of psychiatry in upholding racial injustice. Together, we explore what it means to be an anti-racist clinician in a field that silences dissent, punishes disclosure, and pathologizes defiance—especially in Black, Brown, and Indigenous folks. We talk about the emotional and ethical toll of navigating psychiatric training while attempting to stay true to liberatory values. We talk about forced restraint, overmedication, and the ways psychiatry can reinforce white supremacist ideology in both overt and covert ways. And we ask the hard questions: What is worth saving in psychiatry? What should be dismantled? What might take its place?

    Also in this episode:

    • deciding how much to disclose about your own lived experiences with mental health as a clinician
    • what psychiatric residency training is actually like
    • experiencing moral injury
    • the racist and coercive practices deeply rooted in the history of psychiatry
    • advice for younger clinicians
    • navigating family dynamics in child crisis care
    • the future of psychiatry as a profession
    • anti-racist training for clinicians

    Bio

    Dr. Rupinder K. Legha is a double board-certified child, adolescent, and adult psychiatrist, educator, and independent scholar-activist. She is the founder of the Antiracism in Mental Health Fellowship and a nationally recognized leader working at the intersection of structural trauma, racial justice, and youth mental health. Dr. Legha’s clinical and scholarly work challenges how psychiatric systems interpret defiance and distress—especially in Black, Brown, and Indigenous youth—and seeks to transform the profession through person-centered, antiracist, and liberatory care.

    Links:

    • Rupi’s Website: https://rupileghamd.com/
    • Shield Act: https://rupileghamd.com/shieldact
    • Anti-Racist Fellowship: https://edu.rupileghamd.com/fellowship-sales-page
    • History of ODD Diagnosis video : https://rupileghamd.com/speaking/v/odd


    Resources:

    • Get the book: ⁠⁠Mad Studies Reader: Interdisciplinary Innovations in Mental Health⁠

    • Become a member: ⁠The Institute for the Development of Human Arts⁠

    • Train with us: ⁠Transformative Mental Health Core Curriculum

    Sessions & Information about the host: ⁠⁠JazmineRussell.com⁠⁠

    Disclaimer: The DEPTH Work Podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any information on this podcast in no way to be construed or substituted as psychological counseling, psychotherapy, mental health counseling, or any other type of therapy or medical advice.
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    49 m
  • 103. The Link Between Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome (EDS)/Hypermobile Spectrum Disorders & Anxiety and Nervous System Dysregulation with Derik Anderson

    103. The Link Between Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome (EDS)/Hypermobile Spectrum Disorders & Anxiety and Nervous System Dysregulation with Derik Anderson
    Mar 14 2025
    20% of the population is on the hypermobile spectrum and can struggle with chronic pain because of it. At the more extreme end of the spectrum is Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome (EDS), a genetic disorder that affects not not muscles and joints but the whole body in ongoing feedback loops. Perhaps most significantly, 80% of people with EDS have generalized anxiety. Most doctors or practitioners seeing people with vague symptoms from chronic pain, allergies, SIBO, IBS, brain fog, POTS, autoimmunity, anxiety, and more are often unaware that EDS can be the cause. Even less know about holistic ways to intervene in the cycle of dysregulation. So I spoke with a specialist in EDS, Dr. Derik Andersen to get some answers.In this episode we discuss:what is Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome?the mast cell activation and EDS cyclewhat are the symptoms and how can someone test themselves?why are anxiety and nervous system issues associated with it?research on the Autonomic Nervous System and HRVneurodivergence and EDSholistic treatment approachesfocused shockwave therapynutritional interventionsbreathwork for the nervous sustemwhat practitioners should knowBioDerik S. Anderson, DC, CPT, CSN is the Clinic Director of the Muscle and Joint Clinic in Northern California. He helps his patients be healthier by utilizing his education and personal and professional backgrounds. Dr. Anderson grew up wanting to help people and initially planned to go to business school to work in energy conservation. But, after a good friend’s life was positively changed by chiropractic care, he had a change of heart. His friend spent two years with horrific intestinal problems and saw over a dozen providers, but no one could help her – until she saw a chiropractor. The chiropractor knew that the vertebra and muscles around them affected the nerves that controlled the intestines. After treatment, she was no longer bed-ridden and went back to teaching, traveling and leading an active life. Dr. Anderson realized that health care was his calling and his passion for helping people was channeled into chiropractic.Education:Life Chiropractic College West, Doctor of ChiropracticUniversity of California, Santa Barbara, Bachelor of Arts, EconomicsCompleted more than 1,000 hours of post-doctoral educationSports Nutritionist, CertifiedPersonal Fitness Trainer, CertifiedActive Release Technique, Certified 2011FAKTR, CertifiedMyofascial Decompression, CertifiedIronman® Healthcare ProviderThe Clinic: https://musclejointclinic.com/Resources:Dr. Jessica Eccles https://www.bsms.ac.uk/about/contact-us/staff/dr-jessica-eccles.aspxhttps://tmsforacure.org/ Links: Find videos and bonus episodes: ⁠DEPTHWORK.SUBSTACK.COM⁠Get the book: ⁠⁠Mad Studies Reader: Interdisciplinary Innovations in Mental Health⁠Become a member: ⁠The Institute for the Development of Human Arts⁠Train with us: ⁠Transformative Mental Health Core CurriculumSessions & Information about the host: ⁠⁠JazmineRussell.com⁠⁠Disclaimer: The DEPTH Work Podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any information on this podcast in no way to be construed or substituted as psychological counseling, psychotherapy, mental health counseling, or any other type of therapy or medical advice.
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    54 m
  • 102. Healing Traumatic Brain Injuries & Chronic Pain with Kayleigh Stack

    102. Healing Traumatic Brain Injuries & Chronic Pain with Kayleigh Stack
    Mar 7 2025

    Our brains are one of the most adaptable and dynamic parts of the body. Brain injuries, however, can disrupt all facets of our lives from personality to relationships to how we move through the world. Even a minor concussion can have lingering effects to mood and executive functioning and attention that can slip under the radar. On this episode, I’m joined by a lived experiencer of traumatic brain injuries, Kayleigh Stack. She shares her story, not sparing any of the ups and downs and talks about managing pain and easing the nervous system.

    In this episode we discuss:

    • the lesser known impacts of traumatic brain injuries
    • the importance of nervous system regulation
    • types of treatments for TBI
    • hyperbaric oxygen treatment
    • dealing with chronic pain
    • the power of story and resisting reductionist narratives

    Bio

    Kayleigh is an activist, artist, community steward, and medicine woman. Over the past ten years, she has orchestrated spaces for people to share recorded audios of poignant histories and stories oriented around critical social and political narratives to be presented in an Oral History Performance Initiative: The Community Storytelling Composition Project. Above all else, she believes that sharing personal stories has the power to restore humanity and resuscitate life back into one another when in need. Because “if we don’t share your stories, Who will?” (Mia Mingus 2018)

    Most of her work focuses on socio-political discourse, drawing upon performance as a subversive tool to generate conversation around a particular poignant or charged subject. Her educational background spans degrees in Sociology from Hunter College, NY, Anthropology from SUNY New Paltz, NY, a Masters in Traditional Chinese Medicine at Pacific College of Oriental Medicine where she became a Licensed Acupuncturist, and Masters of Oral History at Columbia University. Professional accomplishments include getting onto the Cirque du Soleil roster of Circus artists in 2014, Dance Oral Historian Assistant in New York Public Library’s Library of Performing arts, Production Stage Manager with Roll the Bones Theatre at Dead Letter No. 9, Network Director of Zen Peacemakers International, and administration for a variety of reputable arts nonprofits. Currently she is Creative Learning Manager for the international civic production company, Forklift Danceworks. Outside of work, Kayleigh is often escaping into other worlds through reading, writing, or walking quietly in nature. Nowadays, mostly the latter.

    Links

    • Kayleigh’s Linktree
    • hyperbaric oxygen meta-analysis for tbi https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10072-015-2460-2 & https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/neu.2017.5225

    Resources:

    • Find videos and bonus episodes: ⁠DEPTHWORK.SUBSTACK.COM⁠
    • Get the book: ⁠⁠Mad Studies Reader: Interdisciplinary Innovations in Mental Health⁠
    • Become a member: ⁠The Institute for the Development of Human Arts⁠
    • Train with us: ⁠Transformative Mental Health Core Curriculum

    Sessions & Information about the host: ⁠⁠JazmineRussell.com⁠⁠

    Disclaimer: The DEPTH Work Podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any information on this podcast in no way to be construed or substituted as psychological counseling, psychotherapy, mental health counseling, or any other type of therapy or medical advice.
    Más Menos
    59 m
  • 101. Rethinking Assumptions Within Psychiatry & Developing Conceptual Competence with Awais Aftab

    101. Rethinking Assumptions Within Psychiatry & Developing Conceptual Competence with Awais Aftab
    Feb 17 2025

    “Any movement that aspires to be critical must be self-critical. There is value in approaching 'critical' not as an identity, a label, or a dividing line, but rather as a mode of engagement, as a virtue of philosophical and scientific thought. Critical psychiatry, if it is to embody this virtue, can only do so by insisting that it is a 'theory in the making' and by demonstrating continuous self-criticism, questioning, re-examination, and exploration of new possibilities.”

    - Awais Aftab, Conversations in Critical Psychiatry

    To move beyond binaries in mental health, we must complicate questions such as: ‘to medicalize or not to medicalize?’ or ‘is it a biological or a psychological problem?’ Since psychiatrists get almost exclusively medical training, Dr. Aftab advocates for what he calls “conceptual competency,” problematizing basic assumptions about the mind and brain that can prevent clinicians from truly supporting people and safeguarding their agency. In this episode, we explore the tensions between orthodox psychiatry and its critics, the future of psychiatric diagnostics, and how learning from philosophy and neuroscience can bring fresh perspectives.

    In this episode we discuss:

    • conceptual competency and challenging underlying assumptions in psychiatry
    • ways in which critical psychiatry/psychology could benefit from being self-critical
    • how modern neuroscience can help break down old binaries
    • how to decide where to intervene across bio, psycho, social factors
    • ADHD as an example of complex causal factors
    • childhood trauma and brain/biological changes
    • why issues in broader medical disciplines apply to psychiatry
    • pluralism and how can disciplines can come together
    • future of diagnostics beyond the DSM era

    Bio

    Dr. Awais Aftab is clinical assistant professor of psychiatry at Case Western Reserve University and practices as a psychiatrist in Cleveland, OH, USA. His academic, educational, and public-facing work focuses on conceptual and critical issues in psychiatry. He led the interview series “Conversations in Critical Psychiatry” for Psychiatric Times, and a book adaptation has been published by Oxford University Press. He is a senior editor for the journal “Philosophy, Psychiatry, & Psychology.” He peer-reviewed work has been published in top psychiatric journals, he has written for the New York Times, and has been quoted in publications such as the LA Times, VICE News, and the Rolling Stones Magazine. He blogs online at his Substack newsletter Psychiatry at the Margins, which has more than 10,000 subscribers from 120 countries.(https://psychiatrymargins.com/).

    Links

    • Awais’ Substack

    • Conversations in Critical Psychiatry book

    • (mentioned) The Entangled Brain by Luiz Pessoa

    Resources:

    • Get the book: ⁠⁠Mad Studies Reader: Interdisciplinary Innovations in Mental Health⁠

    • Become a member: ⁠The Institute for the Development of Human Arts⁠

    • Train with us: ⁠Transformative Mental Health Core Curriculum


      Sessions & Information about the host: ⁠⁠JazmineRussell.com⁠⁠

      Disclaimer: The DEPTH Work Podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any information on this podcast in no way to be construed or substituted as psychological counseling, psychotherapy, mental health counseling, or any other type of therapy or medical advice.
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      1 h y 18 m
    • 100. Remembering Where You Come From: Thoughts on the United States from an Indigenous Ancestral Healer of Zulu and Swazi Lineage, Thabiso Mthimkhulu

      100. Remembering Where You Come From: Thoughts on the United States from an Indigenous Ancestral Healer of Zulu and Swazi Lineage, Thabiso Mthimkhulu
      Feb 7 2025

      “One thing that I want people to understand is that if you live in America, you live in a business and you are a customer in that business.” - Thabiso Mthimkhulu

      I’m really exited to have Thabiso Mthimkhulu back on the podcast for a follow up conversation. Our discussion on “Redefining Crazy” and how we think about mental health was one of the most popular episodes on Depth Work to date. In this episode, Thabiso and I talk about the roles of metaphor and symbol in the mind-body relationship in sickness and indigenous views of learning to let the body speak. He also opens up about his thoughts on the United States and his home country Eswatini. His piercing insight into the causes of division, violence, and systemic oppression in the US is a call to “remember where you come from” and your own ancestral lineages.

      In this episode we discuss:

      • the role of symbol and metaphor in understanding sickness

      • letting the body speak

      • America’s exploitative systems and societal division

      • Reclaiming your roots

      Bio:

      Gogo Ndlondlo (whose given birth name is Thabiso Mthimkhulu) is an Indigenous Zulu and Swazi sangoma, from the lineage of Khuzalingezwa Emzini Wamadoda— born and raised in Hlathikhulu, Swaziland.

      Gogo Ndlondo was raised in a family of healers who hold a great body of knowledge and wisdom of traditional African herbal and ancestral medicine. Gogo Ndlondo experienced his calling illness, ukuthwasa, as a young child — seeing spirits, hearing voices, time traveling, having visions, and prophetizing about the future. Gogo Ndlondo’s access to other realities and ancestral realms was affirmed within his cultural worldview, where his family and community recognized his soul calling as a sangoma— to continue practicing and carrying out this lineage of important healing medicine.

      Gogo Ndlondlo spent his life in training, and is formally engaged in a multi-year apprenticeship process, under the brilliant guidance and mentorship of Gogo Dabulamandzi in the lineage of Khuzalingezwa Emzini Wamadoda — in Barberton, South Africa.

      Links

      @thabisoheals on IG

      https://www.thabisoheals.com/

      Resources:

      • Get videos and bonus episodes: ⁠⁠DEPTHWORK.SUBSTACK.COM⁠⁠
      • Get the book: ⁠⁠⁠Mad Studies Reader: Interdisciplinary Innovations in Mental Health⁠⁠
      • Become a member: ⁠⁠The Institute for the Development of Human Arts⁠⁠
      • Train with us: ⁠⁠Transformative Mental Health Core Curriculum


      Sessions & Information about the host: ⁠⁠JazmineRussell.com⁠⁠

      Disclaimer: The DEPTH Work Podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any information on this podcast in no way to be construed or substituted as psychological counseling, psychotherapy, mental health counseling, or any other type of therapy or medical advice.
      Más Menos
      1 h y 8 m
    • 99. Creative Liberation: The Intersection of Mental Health, Neurodivergence, and Gender Queer Experiences with Lyo-Demi Green

      99. Creative Liberation: The Intersection of Mental Health, Neurodivergence, and Gender Queer Experiences with Lyo-Demi Green
      Jan 17 2025
      Building visions towards a liberatory future will take creative power, vulnerability, radical imagination, and the capacity to honor difference in all its beauty. Lyo-Demi exemplifies this courage and power in their writing and poetry: “My diagnosis of “bipolar disorder,” in my opinion, is both a sensitivity towards and reaction to traumas (both personal and systemic) that yields strength, creativity, and passion, and my diagnosis of “gender dysphoria”…well that just makes me fabulous.” (From essay: Not Confused, Not Crazy) As we ‘reinvent the world,’ many of us have to wade through the nuances of adopting or rejecting labels, and find ways to support ourselves and each other, both within and outside systems. In this episode, Lyo-Demi and I talk about DSM categories, the generative and difficult aspects of mental health concerns, and the gift and power of creativity. In this episode we discuss: the power of mutual aid and peer support reframing and depathologizing mental health diagnoses generative aspects of what gets labeled bipolar and mania honoring difference at the intersection of neurodiversity and gender queerness using creativity, graphic novels and stories to build visions toward liberation Bio Lyo-Demi Green (they/them) is a queer and non-binary writer, graphic novelist and tenured community college professor living in the San Francisco Bay Area on Ohlone Land. They have been published on Salon, The Body is Not an Apology, Foglifter, and elsewhere. They have been featured at dozens of reading series, slams, showcases, and workshops in schools, colleges, and open mics locally and across the country. They co-edited We've Been Too Patient: Voices from Radical Mental Health with Kelechi Ubozoh, published by North Atlantic Books and distributed by Penguin Random House in 2019. They authored Phoenix Song, published by Black Lawrence Press in 2022. They received a BA from Vassar College and have an MFA in Creative Writing from Mills College. LD has attended the Association of Writers and Writing Programs, was a Lambda Emerging Writers Fellow, and was selected for Tin House and Stowe Story Labs. LD’s queer and trans rom-com fantasy screenplay Journey to the Enchanted Inkwell was a finalist in several national contests. With the help of the Sequential Artists’ Workshop, they adapted this project into a YA graphic novel script. They met their collaborating artist Jamie Kiemle through the online community Kids Comics Unite. LD is a decades-long fan of graphic novels, and they have taught them for over a decade at places like the San Francisco Art Institute and others. They are represented by literary agent Jennifer Newens of Martin Literary and Media Management. Links @leoninetales on IG and Threads www.ldgreen.org http://www.ldgreen.org/graphic-novel.html https://blacklawrencepress.com/books/phoenix-song/ Not Confused, Not Crazy Essay Resources: Get videos and bonus episodes: ⁠⁠DEPTHWORK.SUBSTACK.COM⁠⁠Get the book: ⁠⁠⁠Mad Studies Reader: Interdisciplinary Innovations in Mental Health⁠⁠Become a member: ⁠⁠The Institute for the Development of Human Arts⁠⁠Train with us: ⁠⁠Transformative Mental Health Core Curriculum Sessions & Information about the host: ⁠⁠JazmineRussell.com⁠⁠ Disclaimer: The DEPTH Work Podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any information on this podcast in no way to be construed or substituted as psychological counseling, psychotherapy, mental health counseling, or any other type of therapy or medical advice.
      Más Menos
      53 m