I'm a really big believer in the idea of a unified RevOps function supporting all the go-to-market teams.

But I'll be honest, sometimes it's a little discouraging when I look at how RevOps is done in practice, because outside of a few examples, I usually see essentially a sales ops function with a new name.

So I wanted to find people who are actually leading a unified RevOps team in the real world and to understand how they're doing it and how it's working out for them.

Today's guest is leading a very mature RevOps function at Electric and has a ton of practical insight to share.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Julia Kim is VP of Revenue Operations for Electric and an Adjunct Instructor at Columbia University. She has over 10 years experience as an operations executive and has launched award-winning consumer and SaaS products mentioned in the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Forrester, and TechCrunch.

Before Electric, she led GTM operations for 4 profitable acquisitions. In addition to her RevOps experience, she has a technical background with a recent focus in artificial intelligence and predictive data modelling.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliajuleskim/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:50] - Definition of Revenue Operations
• [03:40] - RevOps at different stages of maturity
• [09:09] - Deep dive on Julia’s team structure
• [14:00] - Collaboration within the RevOps team
• [21:52] - Addressing concerns about unifying the ops functions
• [28:07] - Identifying biggest opportunities for impact
• [37:19] - Relationship with data team
• [40:11] - Change management and enablement
• [47:37] - RevOps and AI
• [55:11] - What’s a current challenge?

Big thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode.

We all know that outbound is really tough. Now imagine a world where you’re reaching people who know your product, love your product, and are actually happy to hear from you.

UserGems makes that a reality. They identify your customers and champions who change jobs and automatically push new contacts to your CRM so your team can follow up.

If you’re not reaching out to customer job changers, you’re missing opportunities. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners.

Try UserGems

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Every company pays lip service to privacy. But few seem to really value it in practice.

In marketing and sales, we rely on personal and behavioural data for so many commonplace tactics, and this reliance is only increasing.

It's a kind of arms race. Even if you wanted to, it feels like you can't afford to give up the perceived advantages of using personal data.

And even as we continually hear about the "death" of this or that type of tracking, the reality is that hundreds of billions of advertising revenue are on the line. The incentives to keep collecting and commodifying our data are huge.

I wanted to dig deeper into the current state of privacy in marketing today, and I could think of no better person to reach out to than Stephane Hamel.

He is a legendary practitioner and thought leader in the digital analytics space and one of the foremost advocates for privacy and ethics in marketing.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Stephane Hamel is a digital analytics and marketing expert with over 35 years experience. He has spoken at over 150 industry events and was named one of the Most Influential Industry Contributors by the Digital Analytics Association. As an educator, he’s taught thousands of students at institutions including UBC, SimpliLearn, ULaval, Harvard, YorkU, and others. In recent years, he’s focused his attention on the ethical use of data in a marketing context

https://www.linkedin.com/in/shamel/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:49] - Current state of privacy in marketing
• [03:30] - Vision of a truly privacy-oriented company
• [08:20] - How a 100% consent-based model would work
• [10:59] - Is privacy-respecting marketing better marketing?
• [13:26] - Analogy of seatbelts
• [17:32] - Getting people to care about privacy
• [20:50] - Advertising in a privacy-first world
• [24:21] - Conflict between privacy and commercial interests
• [31:41] - Google and the “death” of third-party cookies
• [36:47] - AI literacy
• [41:44] - Career impact of being privacy-oriented

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Refine Labs has had a seismic impact on B2B marketing.

Whether you agree with their philosophy or not, it's hard to deny its influence. They've set the agenda, defined the terms of the debate, and challenged many aspects of the status quo.

Former CEO Chris Walker catapulted the agency to prominence with his LinkedIn thought leadership. But behind the scenes, there's also been an intricate operational odyssey to scale Refine Labs from scratch to nearly 100 employees.

Today's guest, Megan Bowen, partnered with Chris from the beginning as COO before taking over as CEO in January of 2024. In this no-holds-barred episode, she shares an operational perspective on building Refine Labs, with candid stories and insights about scaling a service-based business, riding the hyper-growth rollercoaster, and weathering economic storms.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Over her 20+ year career, Megan Bowen has built and scaled go-to-market teams at eChalk, ZocDoc, Grubhub/Seamless (IPO: 2014), ManagedbyQ (WeWork Acquisition: 2019) and Platterz.

In 2020, she teamed up with the Founder of Refine Labs to change the way B2B companies go-to-market.

Today, she is the CEO of Refine Labs, A B2B Demand Generation Agency.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/meganwhitebowen/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:32] - Megan’s background
• [07:06] - Building Refine Labs
• [14:15] - Stepping into the CEO role
• [16:34] - Prioritizing the health of your team
• [21:56] - Segmenting clients and service levels
• [23:54] - Packaging, pricing, and service design
• [25:46] - Transparency in the sales process
• [27:43] - Achieving consistent service quality when scaling the team
• [31:21] - Onboarding process
• [31:59] - Balancing supply and demand in agency staffing
• [35:23] - Transparency around layoffs
• [37:12] - Evolution of Refine Labs methodology
• [40:36] - Partnership with Aspireship

• Refine Labs | Leading B2B Demand Generation Agency
• Refine Labs x Aspireship - Get subsidized access to the Refine Labs IP library with Aspireship.

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I think marketing is one of the toughest functions to lead successfully.

Your job is part art, part science. You need to hire, coach, and retain talent with a huge range of skillsets that you may even not be master of yourself—from the creative to the analytical to the technical.

And then your job is to simultaneously create demand, capture demand, help sales convert that demand, help customer success retain and expand that demand...your job is never done.

Today we chat with one of my favourite marketing leaders, Thao Ngo. We'll explore her unconventional marketing strategy and also her leadership playbook—how she grows her team and creates an environment where people do their best work.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Thao Ngo is a senior B2B marketing leader with 20+ years of experience in building world-class teams, generating sales-ready leads, and creating brand awareness for tech companies of various sizes. She's led marketing teams at Elastic Path, Vision Critical, and SensorUp, and is currently SVP of Marketing at Uptempo.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/thaongo/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:09] - What makes a great marketer?
• [02:40] - Evolution of marketing skills
• [04:48] - How to use data
• [06:25] - Marketing leadership and operating rhythms
• [09:30] - Trust and psychological safety
• [12:49] - Coaching and feedback
• [24:32] - First hires on a marketing team
• [25:43] - Division of labour between CMO and VP
• [28:05] - What keeps Thao up at night
• [29:47] - The marketing planning process
• [36:24] - Influencer / community marketing programs
• [47:13] - A day in the life of Thao

• Live MOps Huddles

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More and more marketers are embracing demand creation as a strategy, at least in principle.

But making a fundamental GTM change is HARD.

You need to build executive alignment, define new KPIs, identify how to educate your target audience, fine-tune your content engine, and a whole lot more.

As VP of Demand Gen at Refine Labs, Sam Kuehnle has been a big part of the movement evangelizing a shift from lead gen to demand gen and has helped many companies make the transition.

Now he's leading a similar shift as an in-house marketing leader.

We go deep into what it takes to actually implement this strategy in practice, go beyond leads, and deliver real revenue impact.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Sam Kuehnle is VP of Marketing at Loxo, the Talent Intelligence Platform. From working in-house at a publicly-traded company, to advising seed stage companies trying to figure out how to crack their first $1M in ARR, to everything in-between, Sam is passionate about learning and sharing better ways to do marketing.

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:37] - Sam’s marketing experience before Refine Labs
• [06:33] - Joining Refine Labs
• [08:11] - Refine Labs onboarding process
• [10:21] - A typical engagement + aligning with customer teams
• [13:36] - How to communicate a demand creation strategy
• [20:26] - Identifying the right mix of channels / platforms
• [25:02] - Leading indicators for demand creation
• [26:45] - Brand awareness vs. demand creation
• [31:32] - Evolution during Sam’s tenure at Refine
• [33:33] - The band-wagon effect and how to identify the best practices of tomorrow
• [35:11] - Joining Loxo
• [37:10] - Sam’s first priorities after going in house
• [41:38] - LinkedIn ad strategy
• [45:09] - Experiments with Connected TV
• [51:35] - ChatGPT as a marketing channel

• Sam's Marketing Meditations - Sam's Substack

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I've worked with a bunch of different sellers. Some were good. Some not so much. But one or two were truly next level.

They had consistently better results. They brought in bigger deals. They closed accounts no one else could. And they just seemed to "get it" in a different way.

They were switched on—you didn't need to tell them what to do. Whatever challenge you threw at them, they found a way. They seemed built just a little bit differently than other people on the team.

I've always been curious about what makes those great sellers great.

To help answer that question, I sat down with true superstar of the sales world, 5x President's Club winner Brian LaManna, Strategic AE at Gong.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Brian LaManna is a Strategic Account Executive at Gong and Founder of Closed Won, where he offers resources and playbooks for sellers. He is a 5x President's Club winner and regularly achieves 200%+ of quota.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianlamanna/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:28] - Role of a seller in the revenue process
• [03:11] - Sales is not convincing
• [04:03] - Defusing prospect defensiveness
• [05:48] - When to break the sales process
• [07:21] - Are good sellers born or made?
• [09:26] - Attributes of a great seller
• [11:25] - Developing a “CEO” mindset
• [13:17] - Cultivating real relationships with customers
• [16:11] - Mindsets, strategies, and routines
• [24:18] - Benefits of selling Gong
• [25:28] - The sales / sales ops relationship
• [28:53] - How ops can get sellers to cooperate
• [31:45] - What does Gong’s RevOps team do well?
• [33:43] - Why AEs should always be prospecting
• [39:02] - Current state of outbound
• [41:39] - Live example: creating a tailored cold email
• [44:47] - Personalization vs. relevance
• [46:45] - How sellers can win at “social selling”

• Closed Won | Systematizing Outbound
• LinkedIn Post: Personalization vs. Relevance

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SaaS companies spent the past decade optimizing for growth and customer acquisition at all costs. For many, the plan to actually retain and grow those customers has been foggy.

Now with many businesses facing the reality of massive churn, it's become incredibly clear that helping customers succeed is just as important as acquiring them in the first place.

So we're here today to discuss the third leg of the RevOps stool: customer success ops, and by extension, the discipline of customer success as well.

CS Ops doesn't get as much love or attention as marketing or sales ops—one of my past guests jokingly referred to CS Ops as the "red-headed step-child" of RevOps. But I think, and hope, this is starting to evolve.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Stephen McBride is a Customer Success and CS Ops leader dedicated to helping companies grow better. His career has spanned in-house and consulting roles, and he’s spent over seven years in total at Hubspot, five of them as a leader in their Customer Success Org. He recently returned to the agency world with Go Nimbly as a RevOps Delivery Director.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mcbridest/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:49] - Defining the role of customer success
• [02:51] - Role of CS in a PLG motion
• [03:37] - Strategies of a great CS team
• [06:00] - CS strategy at Hubspot
• [07:56] - Why do some big companies neglect CS?
• [09:29] - CS as cost center vs. growth driver
• [11:38] - Balancing the mindset of customer support vs. upselling
• [14:09] - Defining the mission of your CS team
• [15:36] - CS as a point of leverage in the customer experience
• [17:28] - Impact of macro-economic factors on CS strategies
• [20:06] - Identifying the impact of CS, factors you can A/B test
• [21:35] - Scope and mission of CS Operations
• [23:23] - CS Ops as a its own function vs. part of RevOps
• [29:09] - Who should a unified RevOps function report to?
• [31:52] - CS Ops vs. MOPS and SOPS
• [34:42] - CS tools and systems
• [40:19] - A best-in-class CS tech stack
• [42:34] - Churn forecasting
• [44:35] - Getting truly useful health scores
• [48:34] - Reducing churn

Big thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode.

We all know that outbound is really tough. Now imagine a world where you’re reaching people who know your product, love your product, and are actually happy to hear from you.

UserGems makes that a reality. They identify your customers and champions who change jobs and automatically push new contacts to your CRM so your team can follow up.

If you’re not reaching out to customer job changers, you’re missing opportunities. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners.

Try UserGems

• Net Revenue Retention Hub - Go Nimbly - Go Nimbly's excellent hub on NRR and CS topics.

Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

Prioritization is probably the biggest challenge for ops teams.

Say yes to everything—you pretty quickly become a service department.

Set your own priorities without input from the business—you can quickly find yourself irrelevant, even out of a job.

The best model that I've seen for tackling this problem is what we could call the product management approach to managing MarTech.

This is where you effectively treat your stack as an internal product and ops as a product management team working on delivering features for internal customers.

Today's guest has practiced this approach at enterprise scale, with an ops team dozens strong.

Josh Hill shares his insights and lessons learned, as well as his journey as one of the earliest and well-recognized experts in the Marketo community.

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.

You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.

Try Knak

Josh Hill is a GTM operations and systems executive who builds revenue accelerating GTM platforms, global teams, and processes in partnership with Product, Sales, and Marketing. He has a strong track record of turning business strategies into live enterprise capabilities and impactful customer experiences.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jhill2/

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:37] - Josh’s professional journey
• [04:19] - Development of automation pro as a professional identity
• [06:48] - Scope and scale of the teams Josh led
• [08:54] - Definition of a product management approach to martech
• [15:45] - Should marketing ops be oriented around business impact?
• [21:03] - Reasons why ops teams need to say “no” sometimes
• [27:38] - Solving for the internal vs. external customer
• [30:39] - Asking tough questions about adoption and ROI
• [33:53] - Building your roadmap
• [35:53] - Communicating your roadmap internally
• [40:10] - Cultivating resolve around prioritization and triaging requests
• [42:43] - How to transition to a product management approach

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