In this value-packed episode of SaaS Fuel, Mark Osborne, founder of Modern Revenue Strategies and top 25 marketing technology trailblazer, joins host VO and Jeff Mains for a tactical deep dive into building holistic, scalable revenue systems that go beyond the siloed tactics of old.

Mark reveals why random acts of marketing and sales are growth killers, the transformative impact of aligning marketing, sales, and customer success, and practical steps for identifying and nurturing your ideal customers. You’ll also learn how storytelling and “microscripts” can drive trust and reduce friction, the importance of bow-tie funnels (aka the power of retention and expansion), and get a playbook for creating try-before-you-buy offers that accelerate confidence. If you want your SaaS business to be built for significance and scale—this episode is your treasure map.

00:00 "Mastering Sales & Revenue Strategy"

05:11 "Building Effective Revenue Systems"

06:17 Revenue Growth Through Three Systems

12:35 Identifying Top Customers Strategically

13:39 Targeting the Right CRM Customers

19:31 "Aligning Teams to Drive Revenue"

23:49 B2B Buying Shift: Trust Erodes

25:34 Health, Perception, and AI Challenges

29:02 "Bite-Sized Client Value Strategy"

32:12 Effective SaaS Onboarding Strategies

35:49 Focus on One GTM Strategy

40:50 The Power of Specialization

42:35 "Storytelling Powers Human Connection"

47:28 "Creating a Category of One"

48:35 "Collaborative Metrics and Visual Mapping"

52:31 "3D Holograms & AI Innovation"

"But what I find is that really building a revenue system that has multiple components and sort of interlocking components is the real key to growth." — Mark Osborne

Category of One Marketing: "And so we have built a proprietary proven process that leverages our unique expertise for this unique marketplace. And if you believe that that's the right way to solve this problem, then we're the only solution that exists for you." — Mark Osborne

Quote: "the stat is now that something like 70% of the buyer's journey is done before they talk to a single provider, much less you, if you're the second or third tier provider in the marketplace." — Mark Osborne

Lower-Risk Sales Strategies: "it's just a way of giving them that bite of the burger so they can then be excited about coming in and finishing the meal rather than feeling like, well, should I talk to five more people or two more people or get three more references instead." — Mark Osborne

The Power of Storytelling in Sales: "Telling stories is the way that we really resonate and connect with people. So each of those different sort of layers of really small stories and really, you know, sort of large allegories are important throughout the sales process." — Mark Osborne

Build Systems, Not Silos

Sustainable growth comes when every part of the revenue journey is connected—attraction, acceleration, activation.

Customer Obsession Beats Logo Hunting

Long-term companies focus on advocating for and expanding existing customers, not just acquiring new ones.

Say No to the Wrong Revenue

The discipline to turn away poorly-matched clients fuels long-term success and product integrity.

Create Alignment Through Visual...

In this groundbreaking episode of SaaS Fuel, Jeff Mains sits down with Amos Bar Joseph, CEO and co-founder of Swann, the AI-native company on a quest to build the world’s first truly autonomous business. With only three human founders and a fleet of AI agents, Swann is redefining the startup playbook—targeting $10M ARR per employee and running leaner operations without sacrificing growth or burning out teams.

Amos Bar Joseph shares how Swann scales via intelligent automation and human-AI collaboration, creating systems where both people and agents operate in their zone of genius. Listeners learn actionable ways to build their “AI muscle,” leverage experimental GTM strategies, and develop organizations that amplify human talent rather than replace it.

00:00 "Building Resilient Customer-Focused Teams"

05:23 Reinventing the Startup Playbook

08:52 "Scaling Innovation Through AI Agents"

10:14 "Building an AI Support Agent"

15:00 "Optimizing Funnel With Human Leadership"

17:16 "AI-Powered GTM Automation Tool"

20:51 AI Amplifying Human Talent

26:56 Continuous Innovation Through Experiments

28:13 "Balancing Risk in Business Growth"

32:43 "Building AI Muscle Internally"

36:37 "AI Failures: Perfection Over Adaptation"

39:11 Defining Failure in Experiments

42:59 "Redefining Scale with Human-AI"

48:21 Automated Sales Lead Management

52:06 "Connect, Learn, Build Autonomously"

54:40 "Scaling Revenue & Holographic Tech"

"It wasn't like that. What happened is that we started iterating in human in the loop workflows where humans and agents work side by side and there's an iteration mechanism where we refine that collaboration until we got to a process that one person could scale to an output of what used to in the past." — Amos Bar Joseph

Quote: "It's kind of like a developer that works with sales and marketing and sometimes founders or rev ops to turn any go to market idea into an agentic workflow. So you can scale go to market with intelligence, not revenue, not headcount, and really iterate on your go to market at the speed of thought." — Amos Bar Joseph

Quote: "The moment that you remove all the technical complexity with a tool like Swann, then you can start iterating on your go to market at the speed of thought." — Amos Bar Joseph

Quote: "what we aim for is actually these unconventional playbooks, because these playbooks, these tactics, are the ones that you can drive the most disproportionate value from the resource that you invest in." — Amos Bar Joseph

Why Most AI Projects Fail: "The number one reason for that is that the user, the buyer, the organization is optimizing and the vendor together, they're optimizing for perfection, not for adaptation, as you just laid out, Jeff. And the reason is why that is the number one reason, is because you don't know what perfection looks like when you start." — Amos Bar Joseph

Leverage Talent, Not Headcount:

Focus on value creation per employee, using AI to scale intelligent output—not just adding more people.

Iterate to Innovate:

Use experimentation and iterative processes to refine human-agent collaboration and maximize business results.

Embrace the Zone of Genius:

Place team members in roles where their passions and skills create disproportionate value; let AI take on everything outside that zone.

Bias Toward Building

Adopt a build-first mentality with AI tools—solve your own business bottlenecks rather than just buying external solutions.

Stand Out With Unconventional Playbooks:

In...

This episode dives deep into the shifting landscape of SaaS growth, investment philosophy, and leadership with Klee Kleber, former Dell and Rackspace executive and co-founder at Build Group.

Klee Kleber shares why he prefers the "long game" model over traditional VC, explains the math behind durable businesses, talks about the importance of relentless execution, and how empathy, self-awareness, and diversity drive lasting success. From stories of luck at Dell to building customer love at Rackspace and the bold ambition of Topwater, this episode is packed with pragmatic wisdom for SaaS founders, operators, and investors.

00:00 Building for Impact and Permanence

03:12 "Strategic Investing and Growth Playbooks"

06:40 "Efficient Growth Through Discipline"

12:47 "Separate Division for Innovation"

15:14 Apple's Strategy: Innovation & Adaptability

19:21 "Scaling After Market Fit"

20:32 Obsessed Founders: Numbers & Customers

23:57 "Teamwork Drives Effective Leadership"

27:49 "Commit, Focus, Scale Success"

30:08 Exit Strategy Driven by Management

34:24 "Growth Limits and Opportunities"

39:31 "Customer Loyalty Drives Growth"

40:16 Target Audience Traits Matter

46:10 "Defining ICP: Human vs. MBA"

49:45 AI vs Doctor: Diagnosis Revolution

51:44 "Leadership, Innovation, Differentiation Challenges"

54:29 "AI-Driven Growth with Topwater"

"You can't diversify your way to success—you can only retain your wealth through diversification. To build a company, you have to go all in." — Klee Kleber

"Start with customer love—and radiate out from there. Obsess over the customers who love you, and the referrals will follow." — Klee Kleber

"Relentless execution is what differentiates great companies from those that just do okay or even good." — Jeff Mains

"Efficiency isn’t boring—it’s the secret to durable, compounding growth that actually lasts." — Klee Kleber

"Most business to me is treading water, being disciplined, not burning, testing ideas, measuring like crazy, until you find the live wire." — Klee Kleber

"Self-aware founders who build teams that compensate for their weaknesses are the ones who scale and thrive." — Klee Kleber

1. Build for the Long Game – Focus on investments and company-building strategies that aim for durability and lasting impact, not just quick wins.
2. Efficiency is a Competitive Advantage – Discipline in metrics like LTV/CAC and payback periods creates sustainable growth, instead of hoping for a lucky exit.
3. Relentless Execution Beats Strategy Alone – Luck may start the journey, but relentless, focused execution is what converts opportunity into success.
4. Balance Data with Customer Contact – Great founders marry spreadsheet discipline with real human customer feedback and empathy.
5. Embrace Diverse Perspectives – Teams with varied backgrounds, skills, and viewpoints consistently outperform homogenous ones and spark true breakthroughs.
6. Self-Awareness Multiplies Leadership Impact – Know your personal strengths and weaknesses; build teams that complement you and delegate accordingly.

klee@buildgroup.com

https://www.buildgroup.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kleekleber/

The Captain's Keys

Small Fish, Big Pond –

This week, Monica Marquez joins SaaS Fuel to dive deep into the real barriers behind successful AI adoption and organizational transformation. With a career spanning Google, Goldman Sachs, and the launch of Flip Work, Monica shares insights on bridging the gap between technology and human behavior, demystifying AI for non-technical teams, and championing change management that works for people—not just processes.

Discover the critical mindset shifts, the role of psychological safety, and why the future of work is about "survival of the fastest." Plus, get firsthand strategies for leaders to drive transformation and build trust with AI.

00:00 "Embracing Change for Success"

04:03 "Reinventing Work Mindset with AI"

07:33 "Adapting Success in AI Era"

11:08 "Leveraging AI to Enhance Work"

15:34 Building Trust in AI Use

19:05 Embrace Change to Avoid Extinction

21:37 "AI Accelerates Growth, Challenges Adaptability"

27:55 AI Skills: From Prompting to Mastery

30:24 Rapid Innovation and Iteration Challenges

35:38 Leveraging AI to Enhance Strengths

37:17 AI Empowers Founders to Execute

AI Adoption Struggles: "Millions, billions of dollars have been invested in the IT portion or the tools, but less than 2% of the companies are actually seeing ROI on that. And what they're really understanding is that it's because nobody's teaching the tool to the human." — Monica Marquez

Viral Topic: Rethinking Success in the Age of AI: "And so getting them to understand that you have to really unlearn and really destroy, disrupt that, that belief system and really start to create this equation that impact equals success." — Monica Marquez

AI vs Human Judgment: "Because what people don't realize is yes, AI is going to replace some of this monotonous administrative like, you know, work that most of us actually should be pretty happy to hand off. But, but the AI doesn't really know client relationships. The AI doesn't know how to read the room." — Monica Marquez

Building Trust with AI: "People don't trust the AI yet. And part of it is you can't build trust without evidence or without an exchange of, like, doing things." — Monica Marquez

"I feel like AI has helped us get further much faster with less people because AI is doing a lot of this that we would have potentially outsourced in the past." — Monica Marquez

Lead With Evidence, Not Assumptions

Encourage teams to collect data by experimenting with AI—overcoming fear and building trust through firsthand experience.

Prioritize Human Enablement

Invest in change management and behavioral shifts, not just technology rollouts.

Create Psychological Safety

Enable leaders and teams to "not know" and to admit uncertainty, fostering open experimentation and growth.

Champion Unlearning and Reinvention

Help employees break free from old success equations and conditioned beliefs.

Treat Digital Tools as Teammates

Coach AI (like an intern), iterating and refining outputs rather than expecting perfection on the first try.

Model Change at Every Level

Executives must embody the transformation—they are responsible for setting cultural signals for rapid adaptation.

monica@fts-ai.com

https://flipwork.ai

https://www.linkedin.com/in/themonicamarquez/

The Captain's...

In this episode of SaaS Fuel, Thanos Diacakis shares battle-tested advice for scaling SaaS teams, streamlining delivery, and maximizing developer happiness. Drawing on his experiences at startups and tech giants like Uber, Thanos reveals counterintuitive strategies for improving software output, optimizing technical debt, rethinking backlogs, and harnessing new mental models.

He breaks down the importance of incremental value, cross-functional collaboration, and avoiding the traps of over-planning. Whether you lead a small startup or an enterprise-scale engineering team, this conversation will challenge the way you think about speed, quality, backlog management, and long-term success.

00:00 "Checklists vs Software Complexity"

03:19 Bug Fixing: Intuition vs Strategy

08:24 Buckets: Features, Bugs, Investments, Risks

09:47 Optimizing Feature vs. Platform Focus

14:39 "Minimize Work in Progress"

19:20 "Bug Backlogs: Input vs Output"

20:39 Kanban Team Structure Guidelines

26:38 "Rapid Progress in Coding Tools"

28:21 "Minimal Planning, Bias for Action"

31:48 "Delivering Incremental Customer Value"

36:23 Collaborative Workflow Over Silos

39:35 "Building Products That Inspire Use"

42:53 "Accelerate: Building Effective Teams"

44:11 Team Workflow Optimization Framework

47:50 "Explore Mental Models Online"

Why Slowing Down Software Releases Might Backfire: One of the things that would happen is if you slow down, how you ship to production is you'll have bigger batches and bigger batches, which means you might ship more bugs all at once and have to find them in a bigger QA cycle. — Thanos Diacakis

"I also think we sometimes convince ourselves that we know more than we actually do and that we can plan a really long way out." — Thanos Diacakis

Viral Product Development Mindset: "If you engage engineers and product in these creative discussions, you might find out, oh, I scoped out these 10 things, but turns out the customer gets 80% of the value from this one thing." — Thanos Diacakis

Bureaucratic Bottlenecks in Big Companies: "They try to optimize locally for one particular function rather than optimize globally for shipping things out the door." — Thanos Diacakis

Viral Topic: "Why Every Team Should Read Accelerate": So I think if I give anyone advices, if you haven't read Accelerate, then go read that book. Because it's basically lays out in terms of, and this is in terms of like core technical and procedural sort of infrastructural things that teams ought to have to be productive. — Thanos Diacakis

Bias Towards Action Over Perfection

Avoid waiting for perfect plans, especially with innovative projects; instead, learn by doing and iterating.

Increase System Visibility

Make work in progress and team capabilities visible; this surfaces bottlenecks and areas for investment.

Balance Short-Term and Long-Term Goals

Strategic investment in tooling, tech debt, and risk mitigation ensures sustainable delivery and value realization.

Prioritize Collaboration Across Functions

Breaking down silos between product, engineering, and design dramatically accelerates delivery and reduces defects.

Ship Small, Ship Often

Frequent, incremental releases drive faster customer learning, boost agility, and reduce risk.

Cultivate a Shared Language for Outcomes

Use terms like investments and risk (not just features and bugs) to align business and technical priorities and drive meaningful...

In this action-packed SaaS Fuel episode, host Jeff Mains welcomes AI entrepreneur Alberto Rizzoli, co-founder and CEO of V7. They dive into the transformative power of AI in automating repetitive and complex knowledge work, discuss the accelerating pace of AI innovation, and unpack how both large enterprises and smaller teams can prioritize, implement, and benefit from next-generation “agentic” AI.

Alberto Rizzoli candidly shares insights on the future of SaaS, practical applications in B2B, go-to-market challenges, the evolving demands on leadership and hiring, and what it takes to stand out in a world where technology is no longer a lasting moat.

00:00 AI Revolution: Transforming Technology

04:00 AI Reducing Administrative Costs

06:21 "Measuring AI's Impact on Knowledge"

09:41 "AI as Workforce Revolution"

15:53 "Startups Compete on Quality"

18:27 "Tech Giants Dominate AI Future"

22:27 "AI Implementation Leadership Needed"

25:55 "Evaluating AI Tools Effectively"

29:31 AI Adoption Requires Trust

31:46 "Shift in GTM Strategies"

35:48 "AI Automation Careers in Demand"

37:20 "V7Labs: AI Workflow Automation"

Viral Topic: The Real Value of AI in Knowledge Work: "Even if you had the money to ask a lawyer and that were not an issue, you would still first ask ChatGPT because you get an instantaneous answer and there is no friction towards that." — Alberto Rizzoli

AI & the Future of Work: "Keeping a human away from their family and children for five hours to do some work that AI can do in five minutes by consuming a lot less relative energy will actually be kind of the best of both worlds." — Alberto Rizzoli

Quote: "There is still an enormous amount of unrealized value from AI. There is still close to no AI usage at the world's largest companies." — Alberto Rizzoli

AI's Impact on Infrastructure Investment: "We've never seen so much investment in power generation since World War II. So it really is a paradigm shift that's happening." — Alberto Rizzoli

Balancing Creativity and Responsibility: "the creative side is something that we enjoy, but there's so many things that are jobs that things that we have to do, things that always." — Jeff Mains

Viral Simplicity in User Interfaces: "instead of having to figure out, you know, how the watch was built, we're just asking what time it is." — Jeff Mains

The Cycle of Innovation and Investment: It almost becomes self fulfilling because there's so much money pouring into it. And that drives innovation, which brings more money, which drives more innovation. And I think it does become self fulfilling to some degree. — Jeff Mains

1. Prioritize Deep Automation: Leaders should focus AI efforts on well-documented, high-frequency processes, not just shiny new initiatives.
2. Embrace the Player-Coach Model: Middle management is evolving. Future leaders need to be hands-on contributors who coach, not just oversee.
3. Build for Scalability: The best AI tools get you 80% of the way—allocating resources to push to 100% is critical for lasting impact.
4. Hire for Tech Fluency: Hiring should emphasize technical problem-solvers across all departments, especially those who can identify and implement automation.
5. Champion Change Management: Assign a dedicated AI implementation owner to drive adoption—this role will multiply team productivity.
6. Invest in Quality, Not Hype: In a fast-copying landscape, the long-term winners are those who create the best user...

In this episode of SaaS Fuel, Jeff Mains sits down with Michelle Griffin, founder of Griffin Resources, to unpack actionable strategies for building strong, flexible, and founder-friendly teams in scalable SaaS businesses.

Michelle draws on her six years of hands-on experience supporting startups and scaling organizations with fractional HR, recruiting, sales ops, and operational support. Listeners will get insights into modern hiring practices, maintaining workplace culture in remote teams, succession planning, supporting diverse career paths, and practical tips for retention and performance—all tailored for founders ready to lead organizations, not just teams.

00:00 "Leadership, Growth & Employee Choices"

04:38 HR Consulting Business Story

08:44 Defining Culture Through Feedback

11:42 "Work Culture and Reputation"

14:33 Remote Work Flexibility Enhances Life

18:39 Structured Hiring on a Budget

20:02 "Effective Hiring Practices Overview"

24:11 Cognitive Skills in Hiring

29:01 Promoting Without Management Skills

31:54 Leadership Through People Skills

33:30 Golden Handcuffs and Workplace Happiness

37:56 Mentorship and Career Growth Pathways

41:48 Fair Hiring Practices Matter

43:58 AI Innovation & Leadership Insights

Viral Topic Title: Company Culture Is Everyone’s Responsibility

Quote: "Maintaining a culture is intentional and the face of the company is the, you know, pretty much the day to day workers. It's everybody. And it's not something that is kind of reserved for leadership and management and especially how your reputation is seen." — Michelle Griffin

Work-Life Balance After COVID: "That was something that we noticed was a huge priority coming out of COVID is people really reprioritized family." — Michelle Griffin

Quote: "You can do something called a structured interview, which is basically just having your set of questions that you're going to ask every single candidate." — Michelle Griffin

Viral Topic: The Pitfall of Promoting Top Performers Without Management Training: "They often will hire or promote people into a role that were good at their jobs but aren't taught or know how to manage people." — Michelle Griffin

Quote: "if someone is really good at just doing their job and they don't want to move up, that you respect that and keep them in, in a role that they're happy in and, you know, you find other ways to keep them engaged and motivated." — Michelle Griffin

1. Listen Before You Build: Startups succeed when they listen intently to client needs and co-develop solutions, rather than forcing a market-fit from the top down.
2. Define and Defend Culture: Invest in discovering your team’s values. Protect culture by hiring for fit and embedding it into every policy, not just the handbook.
3. Flexibility Drives Retention: Recognizing life priorities and offering flexible, remote, or personalized schedules dramatically reduces turnover and builds loyalty.
4. Structure Beats Gut Instinct: Use structured interviews and neutral assessments to mitigate bias and improve hiring outcomes—especially when scaling quickly.
5. Prepare for Leadership—Don’t Assume It: Promotion must come with training, support, and encouragement to develop people skills, not just technical expertise.
6. Respect Alternative

In this episode, Carl Holden joins Jeff Mains to dive deep into the evolution of SEO, its marriage with AI, and the realities of scaling a SaaS business honestly in a world awash with hype and misinformation. Carl Holden shares his journey from running a leading agency to launching RankBot, an AI-powered tool that automates SEO backlinks for businesses and agencies.

Together, they discuss the myths and challenges in transitioning from services to SaaS, the role of human expertise alongside automation, and why authenticity and steady results still win over quick fame. Tune in for actionable insights, candid leadership lessons, and advice on building products and companies that last.

00:00 SEO vs AI Search Trends

04:38 "Zero-Click Search Impact"

09:25 "AI-Coded Rank Bot Success"

12:39 Automated Link-Building Solution

15:12 "Importance of Links in SEO"

18:05 Automated Link-Building Solution

21:07 "Bots for Targeted SEO Tasks"

27:55 Risks of Automated Content Control

28:50 AI Marketing Red Flags & Promises

35:07 "Scaling Automation for Market Adjustments"

39:31 Future Where Witnesses Are Needed

41:26 Start, Fail, Improve, Repeat

44:25 Easy Connections via Networking Platforms

“Everybody can make a nice website, but who else out there on the Internet is talking about your nice website? That’s where links come in.” — Carl Holden

“AI is starting to take certain tasks, and if you do anything regularly with patterns, AI will help—or do that in the future.” — Carl Holden

“Organic traffic is not going away at this time. The way we get traffic may shift, but people still need it.” — Carl Holden

“If money is all that matters, there are plenty of dishonest ways to get rich. But when you’re dead, you don’t get to keep it.” — Carl Holden

“You want people to do business with you because you’re good, not because you’re popular.” — Carl Holden

“Consistent authenticity—being out there telling people what you do and having a good product—will win over time.” — Carl Holden

Embrace Change, Don’t Run From It

When you see an industry shifting (like with AI), lean into change and make yourself indispensable by creating value within the new paradigm.

Balance Optimism and Caution with New Tech

Don’t blindly trust automation or AI—always validate and maintain oversight. The best results come from combining human judgment with smart tools.

Build in Public, Iterate Quickly

Launch your MVP, gather feedback, and improve over time. Perfection is the enemy of progress.

Results Over Hype

Focus on delivering genuine results; honest, consistent effort leads to sustainable success more than chasing trends or flashy viral tactics.

Be Authentically Honest in Marketing & Product

Resist the urge to oversell or stretch the truth—long-term, authenticity and integrity win client loyalty and positive reputation.

Stay on Top of Industry Shifts

In dynamic markets like SEO, regular learning and adaptation are critical. Monitor changes, test new strategies, and never get complacent.

carl@rankbotai.com

rankbot.ai

https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlholdenmarketing/